Re: Magic the Gathering, DCI Fees???

[Lynxswift]

Ok,

I am enlightened to the DCI situation. Too bad they have to govern things like that. Also, the Sealed Deck price does not add up to retail price of boosters they are giving.

But, as for con prices. I don't mean to be contrary. I only want to be helpful. But, you can not honestly compare DexCon to those larger events. Especially GenCon. You need to take an honest look at what you are offering. I understand that costs are much higher for you because of the smaller attendance numbers and lack of sponsors and big corporate dealers. I also understand that you and the staff and judges are all working for zero reward and recognition. But, honestly the value does not compare to the larger conventions. I have been to about 6 DexCons, and 1 Spring Gathering. 3 GenCons, 5 Otakons, 2 Games Workshop's Games Day, AnimeNext, New York Comic Con, and a bunch of others. There is a surprising amount of gaming that goes on at anime cons. I know that's not a lot of cons. But, it's enough for me to get sense of what's available.

Here's where you cannot compare value to the larger events.
-Poor venue, having to share close space with other non-gaming events.
-Location has nothing within walking distance
-Lack of Big Corporate dealers, with tons of freebies and exciting events and raffles.
-Lower number of dealers, less chance of finding bargains, or hard to find items, latest new/pre-releases and con exclusives.
-Attendance much lower, so atmosphere is less lively, less of a chance for pickup gaming.
-Smaller con, smaller number of events, limited choices.
-Lack of any real exciting guests.
-I'm sorry, but you cannot honestly count Wednesday of your con. Setup is always late. And very few scheduled events actually run.
 
The Con Suite is a nice perk. But, if that's where all the money is going. I think it would be better spent in other areas of the con. I've been to large family, church and community events with more real entre food, snacks, drinks and pastries, and they probably did it on a comparable budget.

My personal favorite con is Otakon, in Baltimore. I know it is an anime con. But, I've seen it grow from a small con at a motel, to a monstrous event. At a comparable cost, they have a HUGE dealers room, tons of corporate freebies, a HUGE convention center all to themselves, concerts of big name japanese musical acts, late night rave/dance and yes they have gaming and LARPS. The video gaming area is a HUGE convention hall all it's own. Not to mention several large halls for their multiple anime showings and panels. If you haven't been to this con, you should try it out.

AnimeNext has only been around a couple of years in Secaucus. But, they are already a much larger event than DexCon. Larger dealers area, a decent venue with walking distacnce food options and multiple walking distance hotel options. They sold out several hotels, to get an idea of attendance. They also had musical acts flown in from Japan and a dance and DJ. And yes they have a growing gaming and videogaming section every year. Though they cancelled their LARP this year.

The New York Comic Con was introduced this year at the Javitz center. It was it's first year with HUGE attendance that they had to turn away people, and it was only $25 for the weekend. Why was Wizards of the Coast, Sabertooth Games, and others there and not at DexCon? The WOTC booth events alone netted me a free 3.5 Players handbook, and 3 boosters of Magic Kamigawa, just for showing up and rolling dice at their booth. WOTC was also holding large tournaments for Magic the Gathering, Dungeons and Dragons Miniatures, and Star Wars Miniatures games. Not to mention the tons of freebies and events from the myriad of other dealers.

Again, I only want to see Double Exposure events to get better. Spring Gathering was a big disappointment to me. I've been to about 6 DexCons and they were better in the early 90's it seems. Gaming might be in a decline, but the lack of growth in DexCon is alarming when compared to other cons. I question if the lower attendance and thus less money to support DexCon because of the decline in the industry? Or because DexCon has not evolved to attract the audiences that the above cons have taken away from you. Look carefully and honestly at what you are offering. There needs to be a change, and I'll attend and support it.

[Avie]

Ok,

I am enlightened to the DCI situation. Too bad they have to govern things like that. Also, the Sealed Deck price does not add up to retail price of boosters they are giving.

But, as for con prices. I don't mean to be contrary. I only want to be helpful. But, you can not honestly compare DexCon to those larger events. Especially GenCon. You need to take an honest look at what you are offering. I understand that costs are much higher for you because of the smaller attendance numbers and lack of sponsors and big corporate dealers. I also understand that you and the staff and judges are all working for zero reward and recognition. But, honestly the value does not compare to the larger conventions. I have been to about 6 DexCons, and 1 Spring Gathering. 3 GenCons, 5 Otakons, 2 Games Workshop's Games Day, AnimeNext, New York Comic Con, and a bunch of others. There is a surprising amount of gaming that goes on at anime cons. I know that's not a lot of cons. But, it's enough for me to get sense of what's available.

Here's where you cannot compare value to the larger events.
-Poor venue, having to share close space with other non-gaming events.
-Location has nothing within walking distance
-Lack of Big Corporate dealers, with tons of freebies and exciting events and raffles.
-Lower number of dealers, less chance of finding bargains, or hard to find items, latest new/pre-releases and con exclusives.
-Attendance much lower, so atmosphere is less lively, less of a chance for pickup gaming.
-Smaller con, smaller number of events, limited choices.
-Lack of any real exciting guests.
-I'm sorry, but you cannot honestly count Wednesday of your con. Setup is always late. And very few scheduled events actually run.
 
The Con Suite is a nice perk. But, if that's where all the money is going. I think it would be better spent in other areas of the con. I've been to large family, church and community events with more real entre food, snacks, drinks and pastries, and they probably did it on a comparable budget.

My personal favorite con is Otakon, in Baltimore. I know it is an anime con. But, I've seen it grow from a small con at a motel, to a monstrous event. At a comparable cost, they have a HUGE dealers room, tons of corporate freebies, a HUGE convention center all to themselves, concerts of big name japanese musical acts, late night rave/dance and yes they have gaming and LARPS. The video gaming area is a HUGE convention hall all it's own. Not to mention several large halls for their multiple anime showings and panels. If you haven't been to this con, you should try it out.

AnimeNext has only been around a couple of years in Secaucus. But, they are already a much larger event than DexCon. Larger dealers area, a decent venue with walking distacnce food options and multiple walking distance hotel options. They sold out several hotels, to get an idea of attendance. They also had musical acts flown in from Japan and a dance and DJ. And yes they have a growing gaming and videogaming section every year. Though they cancelled their LARP this year.

The New York Comic Con was introduced this year at the Javitz center. It was it's first year with HUGE attendance that they had to turn away people, and it was only $25 for the weekend. Why was Wizards of the Coast, Sabertooth Games, and others there and not at DexCon? The WOTC booth events alone netted me a free 3.5 Players handbook, and 3 boosters of Magic Kamigawa, just for showing up and rolling dice at their booth. WOTC was also holding large tournaments for Magic the Gathering, Dungeons and Dragons Miniatures, and Star Wars Miniatures games. Not to mention the tons of freebies and events from the myriad of other dealers.

Again, I only want to see Double Exposure events to get better. Spring Gathering was a big disappointment to me. I've been to about 6 DexCons and they were better in the early 90's it seems. Gaming might be in a decline, but the lack of growth in DexCon is alarming when compared to other cons. I question if the lower attendance and thus less money to support DexCon because of the decline in the industry? Or because DexCon has not evolved to attract the audiences that the above cons have taken away from you. Look carefully and honestly at what you are offering. There needs to be a change, and I'll attend and support it.

I find your entire premise offensive, not to mention poorly timed. 

If you walked into Spring Gathering expecting a DEXCON, I'm going to respectfully suggest that you apply basic logic skills next time, and look at the difference between the DEXCON flyer and the Spring Gathering flyer.  There was NO representation that SG was intended to be a full-blown convention.  It wasn't intended to be, and likely never will be. 

As for your other points:
Poor Venue - ... The space is pretty much perfect for what we need, the hotel likes and respects us, there is room to grow when and if we decide we need extra space, and it's accessible by public transit from Manhattan.  A smaller hotel without "non-gaming events" wouldn't have the function space we need.  Moving to a smaller hotel to guarantee that we filled all the sleeping rooms would guarantee that we were overcrowded and everybody would be unhappy. Again - if you're discussing Spring Gathering, it wasn't _supposed_ to fill the whole hotel.  It's a smaller event deliberately.  And moving just SG to a smaller hotel would undermine our relationship with the hotel we've selected for DEXCON.

Location - ...  We've formed positive relationships with area delivery services, including Neubies, Paulie's Pizza and a chinese/sushi place that brings us flyers for the onsite bag.  Can you step out of the hotel and into a McDonald's? No.  But there are plenty of fast food places within a reasonable driving distance if none of the delivery places we've befriended float your boat.

Lack of Corporate Dealers - ... You get that Origins is attached to a Trade Show, right? And check me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Gencon a WOTC con? and doesn't it still cater to WOTC?  I don't think there's much comparison.  And Comicon? Different audience. Otacon? Again, anime con, not gaming con.  When they start featuring 912 *gaming* events, PLUS peripherals, lemme know.  Then we can start comparing notes, 'k?  Games Workshop Games Days? Totally different focus.  Not applicable in any way, shape or form, unless you wander into our wargaming room and want to compare *that* to the Games Days.  I'm _positive_ the room put together by Mark and Tom holds its own against GW any day.  And nobody feels raped and pillaged by our guys, unlike the public sentiment towards GW and their ever-rising costs.

Lower Number of Dealers - ... For the most part, our dealers are people we've worked with for years.  We work hard to make sure they aren't competing against each other to avoid ruffled feathers, etc.  We want them to have a good time, too, and the real way to encourage "bargains" is to pit two similar dealers against each other, merchandise wise -- not really our thing.  Barter if you want, but don't expect to find the steal of a lifetime.  That's true, but most people consider the Dealer's room the icing, not the main course.

Attendance is lower, less lively - ... You've got to be kidding me.  Which convention have you been at? Are you addressing Spring Gathering again? Because I've seen no shortage of pickup games at DEXCON, including bopping around a corner and discovering Vinny embroiled in a randomly generating Magic game.  I'm sorry - it's likely just the opposite.  Vinny and his amazing efforts to carefully balance the schedule ensures that there's always SOMETHING going on for peopel to play in.  And we make every effort that if somebody seems at loose ends, we find someplace for them to have fun.  So our atmosphere - which is *never* lacking for energy - is one in which everybody has something to do, somewhere to be, and often is too stunned by the whole experience to be where you find them for pickup games.

smaller con, limited choices - ... again, which of our conventions are you addressing? Spring Gathering isn't intended to compare to DEXCON, and ... Do I really need to repeat it again? 912 events. If you can't find something to do, and aren't being entertained, there's something amiss, and it's NOT a shortage of events on our part.  Really.   And if you get truly stuck, seek out a staff member and we'll help you find something.  Or visit the indie games area which is full of nothing _BUT_ pickup games.

lack of guests - our guests come out as regular people to *play*.  I've been told by multiple people "in the industry" that Gencon is for working, Origins is for schmoozing and DEXCON is for fun and games.   While you might not care that they're off having a great time LARPing or playing in a demo, it really tickles us to be the down-time for people who make the industry tick.  Are you talking about anime-con style guests? Not really our thing. Again, different audience.

Wednesday sucks - ... last year when the doors opened for Opening Ceremonies, we were ready to roll.   Sorry, but I think you're plain wrong on that front.  And as for too few events going off, take a look at the grids - wednesday night is completely respectable.  Opening Ceremonies, featuring a nice buffet and a schedule that looks like most conventions' Friday nights.   ... I'm pretty sure everybody can find _something_ to do. 

Con Suite - ...  ? ?? ? Comparable budget for 100 people, maybe.  or 500, even.  But we're talking 1000 - 1500 people. 

Monsterous Event - who wants that? Not I.  *looks around at the senior staff* Not the people putting in the work.  Javits Center? Not what I want.  If you're looking for an anime con or a comicbook show, I've got to say - again, as respectfully as possible, that's not what we are, and we don't _want_ to be that. 

Basically, I've read your points to say that you think we should abandon all the things the staff and management of DEXCON considers important and change directions because you like tradeshows, anime conventions and comicbook shows better than you like DEXCON. 

I don't see that making us "better" in anyway.

As respectfully as possible,

--Avonelle Wing
Senior Vice President,
Double Exposure, Inc.
"Gaming the way it was MEANT to be!!"

[Becca]

(Julie posted before I did, with some similar points. But, since I just typed all this, I'm going to post it as is. )

I'm sorry, but to me, many of the points that you feel make those other events 'better', to me would only make our events less personal and less... what we're setting out to build, which is a community.  If it means that we grow more slowly and ultimately have fewer attendees than conventions like Origins and GenCon?  Totally worth it for what makes us different.  And, to my mind, better.

I'm not interested in us having to suck up to corporate sponsors (see GenCon, Origins and Comic-Con, the latter of which can't be compared since it's a different medium backed by companies with millions to throw into its budget).  It means less respect given to the smaller companies, and we won't stand for that.

Exciting guests?  For... what?  Define 'exciting'?  The gaming pros that we've invited are not here to put on a show for you.  They're here to show their games, talk about the company and the industry, and have a good time.  Again as Avie said, we like them to feel they can come to our events to play, not so much to work.  I'll bet if you ask him nicely though, Tony DiGerolamo'll do something exciting.  

Anime cons?  There is simply no comparison and it's kind of silly to try to draw one.  Anime draws a HUGE following that no gaming convention can touch, no matter that they have gaming there.

Our goal has always been to create a fun, party atmosphere where people can just get together and enjoy themselves.  We don't want huge and impersonal for the sake of a few corporate-sponsored trinkets.  If you are looking for huge and impersonal, we're likely not the convention for you.

Avie made most of the other points quite well.

If you're looking for tons of gaming from start to finish, around some great people who will bend over backwards to try to make sure everyone has a good time, DEXCON's definitely for you.

If you're looking for a venue that gauges companies in order to make more money, making them pay for the 'privilege' of being there when they're the ones who make the industry and all that fun possible, we're likely not for you.  We don't have tons of fancy, because we are busy using our budget and our venue to ensure everyone is taken care of as much as possible, and to give the companies a place they can more easily afford to attend, to show off their games and get to know their target audience.

Becca

[Avie]

Exciting guests?  For... what?  Define 'exciting'?  The gaming pros that we've invited are not here to put on a show for you.  They're here to show their games, talk about the company and the industry, and have a good time.  Again as Avie said, we like them to feel they can come to our events to play, not so much to work.  I'll bet if you ask him nicely though, Tony DiGerolamo'll do something exciting. 

Also....   Aren't most "big name" guests paid for their time when they guest at an anime convention?  The return on investment of paying for "exciting" instead of focusing on what we do best just isn't there.  The three attendees we'd pick up by shelling out for somebody with a name wouldn't cover the cost of having the guest.

--Av

[Becca]

I think that I understand better now.  Lynxswift, if you think that Spring Gathering is indicative of all our events, you are very much mistaken.  I realize that you missed the past two Dreamations due to colds and passed on last year's DEXCON in favor of some fiesta (you use the same name for your xanga account, and I always get curious about people who go on about what we're doing wrong right before our major event when we're all working our asses off to make it great and therefore a little stressed ).

Obviously, you had a great time at DEXCON 7.  You were extremely complimentary, and we appreciate that.  I especially enjoyed your last comment:

I had a great time and was so busy the entire convention. There was so much to actively participate in. It nearly killed me from exhaustion cause I only got about 2-3 hours sleep each night!!! Too much fun . I'll definitely try to go to more local gaming conventions in the future.

Spring Gathering, on the other hand, is very much a 'mini-con' for us.  It's not meant to get very large, and we focus on a few specific areas.  If you were going there expecting it to match DEXCON, of course you were disappointed.  You'll definitely see the difference between them next month.

Becca

[Lynxswift]

Wow, I got internet ninja'd by Ms. Becca  .

(Ohh and the Fiesta was a family/hometown/cultural event that I was unable to get out of going to. Otherwise, yes, I would have gone to your con  . Same with the colds, I just seem to always fall ill that time of year  )

So, if you read my blog, then you understand a little bit. Spring Gathering was overpriced and a mess of non-events. Also, having a High School Prom scheduled at the same time was unfortunate and annoying. And yes I do think it was misrepresented. Do you honestly think you should not apologize to the paying public? I know I wasn't the only one that thought it was a fiasco. DexCon will hopefully see you all in top form though.

As for the number of gaming events at DexCon. There should be an accounting of how many of those games actually run, and how many people played. No fudging the numbers. Also, how many of those events are just plain filler and padding? Anything tagged Bring & Battle in the Wargaming Room should be considered open gaming and not a scheduled event. It's basically "create your own fun." Also, I didn't feel like paying for the Opening Ceremonies buffet on Wednesday night, and was left sitting on the floor in the back of the room with others, waiting for things to get started. It was like sitting on the sidelines of someone's family reunion while they eat. Gaming didn't actually get started till about 11PM on that Wed. night.

Understand that I did enjoy DexCon in the past, immensely. But, even with it in top form, I think it is overpriced and doesn't compare to other cons. The direct comparisons of value to other cons were not started by me. I merely wanted to get accross that if you are going to charge Big Con prices, then the public is going to have Big Con expectations. This should not be a surprise and you can't excuse yourself by saying "We're not that kinda con." The paying public is not there to fund your inner circle of friends get together. They are paying to be entertained. The staff should all be experienced con goers and should already honestly know what is lacking. Think of my comments as a Devil's Advocate, helping you self-meditate on what you can do better. It's better than a "yes men" group constantly patting themsleves on the back for a job well done. I'm criticizing to be helpful, not spiteful. I am planning to go to your future cons and hope for the best.

Your group is over 10 years old by now. I was at the very first DexCon and things haven't changed or grown. I'm not saying your group is bad. I'm saying you can do better. Banzaii!!! Get psyched up to do better. Don't settle for the "parents' basement" mentality of gaming. It's been over 10 years, and we're all much older now. The industry has changed, games have changed, audiences have changed. Find out why you are not attracting the numbers you should be. I'm not putting down your work. You should be proud of your accomplisments. But, I'm merely saying you should strive for better. Don't settle. Grow.

[Salvius]

Wow, I got internet ninja'd by Ms. Becca  .

(Ohh and the Fiesta was a family/hometown/cultural event that I was unable to get out of going to. Otherwise, yes, I would have gone to your con  . Same with the colds, I just seem to always fall ill that time of year  )

So, if you read my blog, then you understand a little bit. Spring Gathering was overpriced and a mess of non-events. Also, having a High School Prom scheduled at the same time was unfortunate and annoying. And yes I do think it was misrepresented. Do you honestly think you should not apologize to the paying public? I know I wasn't the only one that thought it was a fiasco. DexCon will hopefully see you all in top form though.

As for the number of gaming events at DexCon. There should be an accounting of how many of those games actually run, and how many people played. No fudging the numbers. Also, how many of those events are just plain filler and padding? Anything tagged Bring & Battle in the Wargaming Room should be considered open gaming and not a scheduled event. It's basically "create your own fun." Also, I didn't feel like paying for the Opening Ceremonies buffet on Wednesday night, and was left sitting on the floor in the back of the room with others, waiting for things to get started. It was like sitting on the sidelines of someone's family reunion while they eat. Gaming didn't actually get started till about 11PM on that Wed. night.

Understand that I did enjoy DexCon in the past, immensely. But, even with it in top form, I think it is overpriced and doesn't compare to other cons. The direct comparisons of value to other cons were not started by me. I merely wanted to get accross that if you are going to charge Big Con prices, then the public is going to have Big Con expectations. This should not be a surprise and you can't excuse yourself by saying "We're not that kinda con." The paying public is not there to fund your inner circle of friends get together. They are paying to be entertained. The staff should all be experienced con goers and should already honestly know what is lacking. Think of my comments as a Devil's Advocate, helping you self-meditate on what you can do better. It's better than a "yes men" group constantly patting themsleves on the back for a job well done. I'm criticizing to be helpful, not spiteful. I am planning to go to your future cons and hope for the best.

Your group is over 10 years old by now. I was at the very first DexCon and things haven't changed or grown. I'm not saying your group is bad. I'm saying you can do better. Banzaii!!! Get psyched up to do better. Don't settle for the "parents' basement" mentality of gaming. It's been over 10 years, and we're all much older now. The industry has changed, games have changed, audiences have changed. Find out why you are not attracting the numbers you should be. I'm not putting down your work. You should be proud of your accomplisments. But, I'm merely saying you should strive for better. Don't settle. Grow.

Hi. I sat on the sidelines yesterday, but this morning, I have just read a public declaration that I defrauded the public at Spring Gathering. I am taking that very seriously. I'd like you to explain exactly how I misrepresented Spring Gathering. Here is the advertised link:

http://www.dexposure.com/sg2006.html

Please note the following lines: "Featuring the Avatar System 2.0, plus:" and the star attractions were The L5R Kotei (which had about 100 players) and the NAGA/RPGA gaming (which ran a very respectable number of tables. We then posted a schedule which had exactly 24 Wargame events through the weekend. We charged $30 for this event, and we had about 400 people show up. This is actually pretty much the same level as most local area conventions.

Spring Gathering is an Avatar Event, CCG event and NAGA/RPGA event, with some Board Gaming and Wargaming thrown in. We have ALWAYS represented it that way, and we stand by it. What exactly is your issue? What were you expecting that was advertised and not delivered?

What you have basically done is go to DEXCON 7, which had approximately 1150 people and then compared it to Spring Gathering 2006 two years later, which had approximately 400 people, and accused us of "not growing".

On the subject of "Bring & Battle" - they are NOT open events - they are scheduled PRIZE tournaments. There is simply no special scenario attached to them - but winners get prize points, so they are listed in the schedule. We have an EXTRAORDINARY fill ratio - we had over 80% of our games go off last year at DEXCON 8, which is phenomenal for ANY convention.

WHO EXACTLY should we be giving an accounting to? How about the Independent Game Publishers, who told us point blank that they ran more games at DEXCON than they did at Origins AND GEN CON? How about the RPGA folks, who ran almost as many tables as Origins? How about the game company reps like Excelsior, who told us they had more people show up for their wargames than they did at Origins? How about the president of Rio Grande Games, who told us that DEXCON 8 was the best convention he'd ever gone to and he couldn't believe how many of his games we ran? How about all of the board gamers, who sat at just about every table we offered, including MONOPOLY and Checkers? How about the president of Z-Man games, who laughed about the fact that he had more people whow up for his Shadowfist championship at DEXCON than the one at Origins? How about the BattleTech FanPro commanders who were so excited by the number of wargamers who showed up for EVERY ONE OF THEIR EVENTS that they convinced the National HQ to start running the sacred Canon games at DEXCON, the first time they've ever been run outside of GEN CON and Origins? How about LARPA, the entire board of which came out to INTERCON NORTHEAST and had a BLAST running and playing in the LARPS, MOST of which were run successfully, and far more than were actually run at GEN CON and Origins COMBINED?

I am well aware of the fact that we cannot make everyone happy who comes through our doors, however, you made it very easy for me to show exactly how happy we made YOU; here are the rest of your words from your blog:

*****
Thursday, July 22, 2004

DEXCON 7

Well, Sunday ended an awesome 5 day gaming convention here in NJ. I had
a BLAST!!! It's been a long time since I had been to a gaming
convention. There was so much to do and I met a lot of cool people.
Everyone was friendly and I got invited to play in a bunch of games.
Here are some of the highlights.

Wednesday - I checked out opening ceremonies and passed the time playing
a hybrid dice/poker game this guy made up. I also met the folks from
Lucid Raven Productions, the creators of the new Allegiance CCG.
Interesting game. Later that I night I got to play a game of Space Hulk
using these custom macrotures that were about 12" or more tall. I played
a Blood Angels Terminator armed with a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield.
Needless to say, I bashed Genestealers left and right .

Thursday - They were slow to set up this day and I had gotten there
early. So, it ended up being demo game time for me. I demo played
Fishing for Terrorists by Slugfest Games, Allegiance by Lucid Raven and
the Cyberpunk CCG by Social Games. When the dealers room opened, I found
a dealer selling the Warmachine miniatures game at 50% off !!!.
Needless to say, I ended up picking up the Warmachine rulebook and a ton
of minis !!! I've got enough to field a medium sized Cryx force and a
smaller Khador force. I also picked up a few Indy and Xplosion HeroClix
boosters at half off. In the wargaming room I got to meet The
Philosophical Kensai from the Dakka Dakka boards and also the guys from
the company that makes Warzone. I found out that they are based in
Philly. Later that night, I played in a game of Warhammer 40k. It was my
Dark Angels teamed with some Ultramarines and Sisters of Battle against
a whole lot of Imperial Guard Armour and a Thunderbolt fighter . Our
side lost. But, it was a fun game.

Friday - I finally ran into my old college friend Adrian. Played a few
games of Magic: The Gathering and then later met up with his friends at
the hotel's Bar and Grill. Had a snack and chilled. They were going to
be playing in a World of Darkness LARP that night. After that, I headed
off to the Speed Painting Competition. We were each given the same
figure and had an hour and a half to finish painting it the best we
could. I won 3rd place out of six people . I was pretty happy about
that .

Saturday - I played in an Official DCI Sanctioned, Magic: The Gathering
Type 1 Tournament. I didn't do very well. But, I learned a lot and am
now making a few changes to my deck. The cool thing was that I now have
a DCI ID number for tournaments . During the tournament I played
against the most annoying deck on the planet. I won't describe it here
cause the story is too complicated. But, I'm sure I am going to retell
this story to death in the future. SUGARFEST was a BLAST!!! It was all
the FREE candy you can cram into a cup and carry out in your hands !!!
I spent the rest of that night hopped up on candy, painting miniatures
with Lissanne Lake and some other people. She's been featured in White
Dwarf magazine and gave me a few painting tips.

Sunday - I got to play in a friendly Yu-Gi-Oh tournament. Didn't do too
well. But, got a lot of tips from the veteran players. I also entered
some of my figures in the Painted Miniatures Competition. I entered in
four categories: My Imperial Guard Chimera tank (vehicle), a High Elf
Archer (single mini), a Brood of Tyranid Termagants (squad) and a
Tyranid Warrior (Monster). I won 3rd place for both Squad and Monster
categories . Although that really wasn't an accomplishment, cause it
looked like there were only three entries in those categories . Still,
it has inspired me to work harder for future competitions .

I had a great time and was so busy the entire convention. There was so
much to actively participate in. It nearly killed me from exhaustion
cause I only got about 2-3 hours sleep each night!!! Too much fun .
I'll definitely try to go to more local gaming conventions in the
future.

*****
Apparently, your ONLY complaint about DEXCON 7 was that you didn't want to pay $10.00 for an all-you-can-eat buffet and therefore couldn't sit at one of the round tables. Right. I'm sure there are much cheaper 100-gamer buffets at Origins or GEN CON, you know those buffets where they GIVE AWAY IPODS?

Since you are currently bashing us publicly for overcharging, could you explain to me exactly how our $50.00 pre-reg price for a convention which is 50% bigger than the one you attended in 2004 (and nearly dropped dead from pleasure at) is unreasonable?

You stated in an earlier post that it was unfair to compare DEXCON to GEN CON and/or Origins. I agree with you 100% - they cannot come close to matching what we offer.

>>>Vinny

[Lynxswift]

So, I guess things cost what they cost. I can't be disgruntled about it?

And about Spring Gathering. Is this how it should go?...

(Note: the following is a dramatization and did not actually happen.)

Me, "Hey look a Double Exposure event is coming up. I sure liked the last one I went to!!! I'm definitely there!!!  "

Me after Spring Gathering, "Wow, that wasn't good at all  "

Me voicing opinion, "Hey, what up with that? It wasn't good at all and costs too much for what it is. Can't you do better?"

You, "Haha, you should have read the fine print. It's not good on purpose, wasn't meant to be. You went to the wrong show. Now STFU and pay up for the real show. We care not about your concerns. We're GREAT. We don't care what you saw at other cons. They don't exist. We're GREAT."

Ok, so if this is how gaming is supposed to be, then I guess I have no choice.

I'm being given the "We're GREAT, now STFU and enjoy."

Rather than, "We take your input seriously and will look into your concerns."

Here is a public apology. I apologize for my ignorance of all the good things that happened at Spring Gathering that I did not witness. I was not aware that Spring Gathering was a show I should not go to because my particular interests were not represented. I should have read the advertisement more carefully. I acknowledge that 399 of 400 people most likely had more fun than I did. And that my lack of enjoyment was entirely my fault. I also acknowledge that Spring Gathering and DexCon are two different events of varying attendances and offerings. They should not be confused with each other, and it is entirely my fault for confusing the two events.

I've endorsed your con in the past, and you still have my endorsement. I only wanted to be helpful and point out some concerns.  So, future events could be better. But, you do not want to hear any criticisms. Fine, I'll become a yes man and fall in line.

[Avie]

So, I guess things cost what they cost. I can't be disgruntled about it?

I've endorsed your con in the past, and you still have my endorsement. I only wanted to be helpful and point out some concerns.  So, future events could be better. But, you do not want to hear any criticisms. Fine, I'll become a yes man and fall in line.

Dear Mr. Swift:

We acknowledge that SG was not what you expected and we hope that in the future, you will be aware of what to expect at that particular event.  We thank you for taking the time to offer your feedback.  At this time, we would like to point out that running three conventions per year is our limit.  Spring Gathering is an event, not a convention.  I am sorry you felt that the complete lack of the word convention in the SG promotional material was "fine print".  For future reference, Spring Gathering is a grassroots event that started out as an Avatar event. Somebody said "Hey, let's do some RPGA stuff." We said ok. Somebody else said "Let's add some CCGs ." We said ok. Somebody else said "Let's add some board gaming." We said ok.  Somebody else added a ton of wargaming and we said "Cool!" 

You don't know us well enough to make comments about "yes men" and falling into line.  Your post about how our events suck was insulting, inflammatory and poorly timed.  We pointed out that you didn't ahve all the information.  Instead of backing down and reconsidering, you struck out again.

This thread is being moved to where it belongs - the flames and rants forum.

--Avonelle

[Salvius]

So, I guess things cost what they cost. I can't be disgruntled about it?

And about Spring Gathering. Is this how it should go?...

Me, "Hey look a Double Exposure event is coming up. I sure liked the last one I went to!!! I'm definitely there!!!  "

Me after Spring Gathering, "Wow, that wasn't good at all  "

Me voicing opinion, "Hey, what up with that? It wasn't good at all and costs too much for what it is. Can't you do better?"

You, "Haha, you should have read the fine print. It's not good on purpose, wasn't meant to be. You went to the wrong show. Now STFU and pay up for the real show. We care not about your concerns. We're GREAT. We don't care what you saw at other cons. They don't exist. We're GREAT."

Ok, so if this is how gaming is supposed to be, then I guess I have no choice.

I'm being given the "We're GREAT, now STFU and enjoy."

Rather than, "We take your input seriously and will look into your concerns."

Here is a public apology. I apologize for my ignorance of all the good things that happened at Spring Gathering that I did not witness. I was not aware that Spring Gathering was a show I should not go to because my particular interests were not represented. I should have read the advertisement more carefully. I acknowledge that 399 of 400 people most likely had more fun than I did. And that my lack of enjoyment was entirely my fault. I also acknowledge that Spring Gathering and DexCon are two different events of varying attendances and offerings. They should not be confused with each other, and it is entirely my fault for confusing the two events.

I've endorsed your con in the past, and you still have my endorsement. I only wanted to be helpful and point out some concerns.  So, future events could be better. But, you do not want to hear any criticisms. Fine, I'll become a yes man and fall in line.

We care very much about your concerns. This thread started out with a question from you about why WE had the audacity to charge DCI fees on top of convention membership. I answered it politely and lightly. Since that time, in order to prove that I (and others from DE) was wrong and you were right you have done the following:

1) Accused us of defrauding the public by misrepresenting Spring Gathering 2006.

2) Explained in detail how we could not possibly compare ourselves to other conventions which charge more than double that we do when all of their game charges are paid because we do not offer as much variety or quality as they do. Contradicted by your own Blog.

3) Explained to us that because we are so small, you cannot find good bargains in the Dealers room. Contradicted by your own Blog (in capital letters, no less).

4) Accused us of putting in "filler events" with the intent of beefing up a schedule, and demanding that we publicly explain how many of our events actually end up being run. I did.

5) Accused us of having a "parent's basement" mentality, I assume in scheduling or perhaps quality of our product. Contradicted by your own Blog.

6) Told us that we are stagnating because other area ANIME conventions are so big.

7) Told us that we are misrepresenting Wednesday night at DEXCON because YOU didn't want to pay $10.00 for an all-you-can-eat buffet and therefore had to sit in an uncomfortable section of the ballroom.

Outright posted false statements. DEXCON 1, which you say you were at, had 540 people. When we folded DEXCON, number 6 had 1,300 people. We closed for 7 years, and came back with 1,150 at DEXCON 7, 1,350 at DEXCON 8 and we're expecting over 1,500 at DEXCON 9. In fact, we are growing faster than ANY OTHER PURE GAMING CONVENTION IN HISTORY.

Now, there were two options for you in the face of overwhelming facts to refute your posts. One, was to back down and say "OK, maybe $50.00 isn't too much to pay after all for as much fun as I had at DEXCON 7 - Let's hope you can top it at DEXCON 9!". Two, was to act wounded and sarcastic and act as if you are a martyr for the cause of Double Exposure not wanting any criticism.

I listen to everything that is told to me, and I have made hundreds of changes and corrections based on feedback and criticism, public and private. Your tone in these posts was insulting and condescending, your "facts" were outright wrong, and you accused us of fraud. Yes, indeed - IF YOU THOUGHT THAT SPRING GATHERING WAS A FULL-BLOWN GAMING CONVENTION, THEN IT *WAS* YOUR FAULT FOR NOT READING THE ADVERTISEMENT AND/OR SCHEDULE PROPERLY.

"Hey, what up with that? It wasn't good at all and costs too much for what it is. Can't you do better?" No, we can't. Spring Gathering is an Avatar Event that so many people enjoyed that it grew into something slightly larger. Period. As a matter of fact, it became the size of other conventions in the area (which charge far more than $30 for the weekend), some of which DO misrepresent their numbers. We run 4 events per year. It is no secret that DEXCON is our flagship National convention, and I will stand behind it as the best gaming convention IN THE WORLD because of the care and attention we put into it. You are free to disagree just as anyone else is, but don't come into our forum with false accusations and statements which directly contradict your own publicly posted experiences and expect that we will take it seriously.

I have not found a single valid criticism in anything you've posted. Therefore there is nothing for me to listen to. I challenge anyone else reading this public forum to find one that I am ignoring.

>>>Vinny

[Blake Johnson]

I Started Conning when i was, i dont know, 5. Ive been part of the Con Staff since i was 5, Part of CSG, which ran cons like Shorecon, and others i cant remember.... been 2 long. Since i started staffing for Dexcon, the Other cons are no competition for Dexposure. ive been to Opening Day Movie Conventions... Star trek, is 1 i can remember. That was packed, but its no cpmparison to the People we get at Dexposure Events. If ur expecting our Mini Cons to be like Dexcon ur out of ur Mind. Have you been to Southern Exposure? if uve Only been to the Northen Cons u have Nothing to complain about. The whole Purpose of a Gameing Convention is to make, freinds and Have Fun. I have 13 yrs of conning under my belt. ive meet alot of people, and have had LOADS of fun. Maybe u should try the same Concept. Dexcon is comeing up, if ur there come find me. maybe i can Enlighten you on how, this works.

[CassieMcCullin]

Oooo ooo! Rants! My favorite! ;p

While it might be a little late for Mr. Swift here (I have no idea who you are. My apologies.), I thought I might post these little nuggets of wisdom I've learned on how to present things to the staff properly *coughididthesamestupidthingyoudidcoughhide* for anyone who might be reading and thinking, "Hey, I agree with Lynxswift".

Plain old complaining gets you nowhere. Instead of comparing DE events to something like GenCon and basically just bitching, think about it this way: What is it you like at larger cons? What kinds of events do they run that you'd like to see at DEXCON or other events? Let's take the "filler games" thing for example. Instead of saying "you inflate your numbers because you run way too much filler," how about, "There are a lot of Wargaming events, but I am not a wargamer. I would like to see more of the free-structured tournaments you run for wargaming for Bunnies & Burrows" (or whatever it is you play). If you do not understand what an event is supposed to be, consider asking the guys who run it about it. "I see a lot of what looks like Free Play scheduled for wargaming. Is this really just free play time, or is it a tournament? Can I bring my army? Can I borrow someone's and learn about the game? And what the hell is this Prawn thing I keep hearing about?"

So, in an effort to smooth some things over (because I am not staff, and really want to believe you meant what you said about loving the cons and wanting to see them grow well, and can basically be a neutral party here), let's have a look at your complaints, one by one. In excruciating detail. With a magnifying lens and ants.

Since you have apparently attended the same anime cons I have, perhaps I can help translate that perspective as well.

Here's where you cannot compare value to the larger events.
-Poor venue, having to share close space with other non-gaming events.

Because sharing close quarters (i.e., all of Baltimore) with 10000 drunken Orioles fans is better? Dear lord. The VW people have nothing on those guys. At least with the VW folk most of the potential for harassment is where hotel security can watch it. I've seen some scary things happen to cosplaying girls when they went out for dinner at Otakon, and there's no one looking out for them. Basically, no matter how big your venue - from a hotel like the Hilton to pretty much all of Baltimore's inner harbor - you are going to have to share it. It happens. Can't control it. Hell, the VW people didn't even have their con at the Hilton and they still invaded the space.

-Location has nothing within walking distance

This is probably your most quantifiable complaint. Avie did bring up the local delivery places we're friendly with, but what else are you looking for? Are you looking for the tons of restaurants, shows, etc. in places like New York that ComicCon can take advantage of? The options here are three: 1) Put up with it. 2) Move the con to a huge city (I personally hate that. Makes everything on the whole more expensive. $200/night for a hotel in Baltimore or New York? Eww!!! This will drive up the con price you have already stated is too high, because event space costs more, too). 3) Find out what *is* in the area. Can't drive? The hotel is right on top of a bus station, which is 1 stop away from New Brunswick. It's a college town - there's plenty of stuff to do there. Perhaps some of our con-going local Rutgers students could help us out with a list of decently-priced places to eat, theatre phone numbers, and things like that.

-Lack of Big Corporate dealers, with tons of freebies and exciting events and raffles.

It's kind of a vicious cycle. Big Corporate dealers won't come until the event reaches a certain size. The event won't reach a certain size without backing (at least, not easily). Gaming does tend to be an incestuous little circle, though - do you know a guy who knows a guy in one of those companies? Pass on the name. Although we certainly have quite a nice selection of some of the smaller, local guys, running demos and everything. I personally enjoy these more than I enjoy Big Corporate, but I can see the value of the freebies and stuff. So what kinds of companies are you talking about? WotC? I'd like to hear what kinds of freebies and companies you mean. I don't recall much stuff like that outside of a dealer's room/prize support at anime cons.

-Lower number of dealers, less chance of finding bargains, or hard to find items, latest new/pre-releases and con exclusives.

Heh. Yeah, it seems a little sparse, but... There's the guy who sells weapons, the guy who sells anime, the guy who sells books, the guy who sells cards, minis all over the place... What's it missing? Have you considered asking the dealers there if they have stock of those hard-to-find items? Make a list. Maybe the dealers don't know there's a demand for those kind of things. They do tend to bring what they know will sell to avoid carting too much stuff back and forth. If they know there's a demand for something they're not bringing, they may be more willing to bring it with them.

-Attendance much lower, so atmosphere is less lively, less of a chance for pickup gaming.

Perhaps a designated "pickup gaming" area is in order - a place where people looking to run/play in pick-up games can gather. I'm sure there are plenty of people who want to do that kind of thing. Have you considered hanging out in the con suite and asking the folks milling around in there? Our Con Suite guy, Andy, is working to make the con suite more conducive to sitting down and actually gaming in.

-Smaller con, smaller number of events, limited choices.

I just don't see where you're coming from on this. There are LARP's and CCG's and mini's and d20 and Paranoia and that weird Prawn thing. What kind of events are you looking for? Personally, I'd like to see more panels, but since I haven't the foggiest idea on what kind of panels I'd like to see, I'm keeping my mouth shut on this one Some more concrete examples would probably help.

-Lack of any real exciting guests.

Can you define "exciting guests"? I'm not trying to be difficult, I promise! It's the "concrete examples" thing again. You mentioned things like Otakon having Japanese bands. I remember the L'Arc~en~Ciel show. Kickin'! But Otakon also had access to that arena in Baltimore. DEXCON's got a ballroom. Many anime cons I've been to have Q&A panels with their guests - not what I'd call exciting, but that's just me ;-) People seem to enjoy the information they get out of those, though. Is that the kind of thing you're talking about?

-I'm sorry, but you cannot honestly count Wednesday of your con. Setup is always late. And very few scheduled events actually run.

Ok, here's the one thing I've found that I don't think can be worked with without charging higher con fees. Here's why:
Have you ever watched the staff before a con? I have. They rush in from work, set up as fast as they can, wrangle SO's and passer-by into helping out, and try their damndest to get everything done on time. The only way things could be any more on-time or early (and I think they do a damn good job, but this is not back-patting time... I will bring a cake to DEX instead) is if they took more time off from work. They're already taking out a lot of personal time to do this, out of nothing but love. You want it set up earlier? They'll have to be paid to make up for more time away from work. And if you start paying the staff, guess what... Con prices go up!!!

Also, whatever you think of Wednesday night, it's still a 4-day con. $50 for 4 full days? That's pretty good in my book. Otakon's is higher and I stopped going because I spent half the con in line >_<

The Con Suite is a nice perk. But, if that's where all the money is going. I think it would be better spent in other areas of the con. I've been to large family, church and community events with more real entre food, snacks, drinks and pastries, and they probably did it on a comparable budget.

NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! Don't take away my con suite!!!!! I run my Avatar booth in there >_< If I can't put it up there I'll have to sit next to Tony again and his smelly mob game... ;p (j/k Tony!)

Tons of stuff happens there! More than just nibbling chips. It's a social center that lures people into its sweet sweet venus fly trap with the promise of candy. You've got the purpose backwards.

My personal favorite con is Otakon, in Baltimore. I know it is an anime con. But, I've seen it grow from a small con at a motel, to a monstrous event. At a comparable cost, they have a HUGE dealers room, tons of corporate freebies, a HUGE convention center all to themselves, concerts of big name japanese musical acts, late night rave/dance and yes they have gaming and LARPS. The video gaming area is a HUGE convention hall all it's own. Not to mention several large halls for their multiple anime showings and panels. If you haven't been to this con, you should try it out.

Comparing DEXCON to Otakon: Ah-ha! Something I can totally respond on definitavely!

I've been attending Otakon since 1999, its first year in the Baltimore Convention Center. The only had about a quarter of the BCC for space. As I recall the attendance was about 4500 people. Right there - in it's smallest year at the BCC - they had 3 times the amount of people who come to DEX. The dealer's room was pretty sweet, and the rave was fun, and I had a blast. But it wasn't because of corporate freebies (where are you getting these? Tell me! All I got was a big hotel room bill). I met fun people and watched anime I'd never seen before. I saw my first cosplay. But I can do these things at DEX, too. I meet new people all the time, play games I've never played before, attend some cool events, and walk away happy.

As opposed to Otakon, which I am not attending this year because despite their events, there's just not enough to go around. All they've got is a couple of video rooms, a money-sink dealer's room, and panels that I have to wait in line for 3 hours to get into. The video-game room is overcrowded with guys I can't hope to compete with. The only thing that's a draw anymore is the cosplay. And while the reg fee may be comparable, the hotel room costs are not. Actually *staying* in Baltimore is expensive as hell! Central Jersey is cheap.

Ok, so DEX doesn't have a rave. I guess we could add one, but do you really want to see gamers try to dance? The closest we get is DDR ;p (hell, that's about the closest anime cons get, too).

AnimeNext has only been around a couple of years in Secaucus. But, they are already a much larger event than DexCon. Larger dealers area, a decent venue with walking distacnce food options and multiple walking distance hotel options. They sold out several hotels, to get an idea of attendance. They also had musical acts flown in from Japan and a dance and DJ. And yes they have a growing gaming and videogaming section every year. Though they cancelled their LARP this year.

AnimeNEXT cancelled its LARP because... hey Sean, wanna take this one? ;p I'm sure he won't because he's too nice of a guy. But in a nutshell, the con management treated their staff like crap, so he's running it at DE events now

AnimeNEXT had many interesting panels and events. Unfortunately, none of them were in the program book! I missed the yuri panel because they didn't write it down anywhere :-( A lot of the guests were complaining that they didn't know where or when the panel they were contacted to do was, or were asked last-minute to fill a spot because staff didn't plan it properly. As a result, I sat around most of Saturday chain-smoking, waiting for the Go panel. This is something DEXCON has never had problems with - if there's an event, you know damn well where and when it is. They are quite the organized group.



I guess what this all boiils down is:
1) I see your point with some of your complaints. But there are reasons and alternatives, and flat-out accusing everyone of sucking (especially so close to DEX) isn't going to get anything accomplished.
2) I do not understand some of your complaints. Provide more examples.
3) Anime cons and gaming cons, while they have a lot of cross-over attendees, are very different in size and type. Anime is much more popular than gaming (if I hear one more fangirl squeal over Full Metal Alchemist...)  If you truly want to compare DE cons to something, compare it to other small-to-mid sized gaming cons, not huge-ass anime cons or gaming trade shows.

If you want to discuss more of this, feel free to chat with me at DEX! I'll be playing in the Deadlands LARP - why don't you give it a shot? Or, look for me in the con suite (I'll be the girl trying frantically to make my booth not look like a 6th grade science fair table).

Cheers!
-C

[D]

3) Anime cons and gaming cons, while they have a lot of cross-over attendees, are very different in size and type. Anime is much more popular than gaming (if I hear one more fangirl squeal over Full Metal Alchemist...)  If you truly want to compare DE cons to something, compare it to other small-to-mid sized gaming cons, not huge-ass anime cons or gaming trade shows.


OH ED!!! I'll love you forever.  Please take me over that icky Winry??!!!

[Lynxswift]

Ok, I already apologized on the matter. But, I do find it unfair that Mr. Salvius's post that I was responding to was deleted. It takes my above comments out of context. I was responding to his post that he claimed to have a 5-day convention and that I was getting a better value than GenCon, Origins or other area conventions. I then responded in detail of where other events at a comparable cost had an advantage over DexCon. I do not see how constructive criticism should not be welcomed. I never said that your events "sucked." Read them again, in a tone of me offering constructive criticism. Come out of the bubble and listen to some valid concerns.

As for comparisons to anime and comic cons and trade shows. I do not think it is an unfair comparison. It's all fandom of a sort with much crossover and I am weighing the monetary value of what I will experience at those events. I merely stated my opinion that for the money, I felt I was not getting as much as what is offered at those other events and I gave my reasons. I can have an opinion, you know. Whether others agree or not.

And for the record, I paid $40 for Spring Gathering at the door. Which is the same price you now have for 3 days of DexCon. I have already apologized for having higher expectations than what the event actually was. This is wholly my misunderstanding of what was being offered. Though, Please consult your wargaming room staff and judges as to how many of their events actually ran. I was in that room most of the con. Everyone, including the judges for the other events that were supposed to run were too busy playing Axis&Allies. At one point I even wanted to play in the scheduled Space Hulk game that was being set up. But, since I was the only player to show up. The judge decided to cancel the event. Later in the day, Mr. Tiny actually asked me how the Space Hulk game was. He was looking out for me seeing if I was having a good time. I had to tell him the event didn't run. Virtually none of the other scheduled wargaming events actually ran. Also consult the person who was running the Saturday afternoon Magic the Gathering event. At the appointed time of the event, he was not at the card gaming room. I had to track him down at his retail booth in the hallway downstairs. When, I tracked him down asking about the event, he then tells me that it is changed to a sealed deck event, where I'd have to buy cards from him. The event was listed as a free Standard constructed event in the schedule. You can see where my frustration comes from. I am really sorry I had to rat out some event judges. I was hoping to avoid citing specific examples of my frustration. I never claimed any fraud. Only the notion that, Spring Gathering, was not as good as it could have been. And that I was unsatisfied with what I paid for. And that some inexperienced people may come to that event with a higher expectation than what is actually offered. I already apologized for my ignorance on the matter.

[Lynxswift]

I have just called up Wizards of the Coast customer service asking about the DCI fee. Though the service rep told me I should confirm this with the DCI directly, as he was not 100% sure. He said that the DCI does not collect money from players for tournaments. He said that tournament organizers may collect a fee to offset their own costs and time. But, that the money does not go to the DCI. The money goes to the tournament organizers.