House Skills 3.0

[Kate Beaman-Martinez]

We will not be allowing people to switch houses and retain their house skills. It goes against every scrap of background building the GMs have done around the concept of progenitors, the sentience of both the Nexus Houses and of the Nexus itself and basically everything around Gabriel.

--getting caught up on reading everything that's been posted.

Avie,

Does that mean that people cannot switch houses at the conversion without penalty?

For example, if I were to have Cody make the jump from Citadel to Galahad, would she be able to pick up all of the Galahad skills as if she were there from day one? I think that there was talk about that at some point and I wanted to try and get this clarified. 

[SigmaCaine]

I believe that Vinny stated that due to the differences in the way some House Skills & other Skills now work, everyone was getting one free House swap at conversion.

Alf's question was that if after this, if Cody (for example) switched to Galahad, she would not keep all her abilities that she's gained in Citadel thus far and start at Galahad tier 1. She'd lose everything, as normal.

[wcshoe]

I thought he said we were getting a complete rebuild of characters. So, you declare what House you are starting your character in, at level 1, and build it from there. At least, that is how I understood it.

[LucasJamison]

I thought he said we were getting a complete rebuild of characters. So, you declare what House you are starting your character in, at level 1, and build it from there. At least, that is how I understood it.

I thought that too, but reading over recent posts, it looks like a free house switch (at the tier granted by your level), and the ability to make slight changes to skills, stats, and powers based on the new rules.  Not a complete rebuild, but since, say, Dodging no longer exists, and Coercion is no longer a requirement for Hypnosis, and certain ranks of Skills have much higher than ever before stat requirements... you can reconfigure your character a bit so that it works out in the new system.

But, your obviously all-mental character should not now be an expert martial artist with no MIND to speak of, as I understand the thinking here.

[Socket]

Thats the way I understand it as well.

And as for keeping House Abilities (I don't think they should be called skills) upon switching Houses, I don't think it should work.  I think its the idea of it being a "skill" that makes one assume that once you learn it, you should be able to keep it.  Change it to a House Ability, then its more aligned with something you can do that is granted solely by your affiliation with that House.  Leave the House, you no longer have the Ability.

[Alex Rovias]

Waffles may be confused here... but is this what is going down?

At C.O.R. We are allowed to rebuild the character from scratch to current level, including change house as if we where that house from level 1...  So if I decided to say go to helvetia I would have to build as if I was a Helvetia from level 1 and not a Citadel?  And at which case I would have the house abilities I would get as a level 9/10 Helvetia correct and the Citadel powers never exsisted for me?  If thats how it is, then I've been with it all along, if not...

*explode*

[LucasJamison]

At C.O.R. We are allowed to rebuild the character from scratch to current level, including change house as if we where that house from level 1...  So if I decided to say go to helvetia I would have to build as if I was a Helvetia from level 1 and not a Citadel?  And at which case I would have the house abilities I would get as a level 9/10 Helvetia correct and the Citadel powers never exsisted for me?  If thats how it is, then I've been with it all along, if not...

Actually, think of it this way: you build a character in 3.x that is as close as possible to your existing character under the new rules as humanly possible.  A few minor changes that do not drastically alter the character of your, uh, character may be allowed, but it must be essentially the same character.

Then you swap all the existing Citadel Skills for the Helvetia Skills.

That may be a more accurate way to look at it.

[Frigemall]

OK, I know it has been mentioned before, but the Helvitia house skills are still way out of balance. There is no counterbalance to them. Most of the other house skills can be countered. ie area effect to those who can not be targetted, surprise for those who can counter abilities, immunities to mental, etc. Of all the things that were out of balance in the new system this is the only real glaring one that was not addressed, and it will come into play soon. Several people went to that house so that they could become more powerful than anyone else. The other houses can not compete with these abilities. Helvetia will become the house of Min/Maxers. Before it gets rediculous perhaps other ways can be suggested
that will keep the spirit of the arbiters of neutrality without having a single house that is WAY out of proportion with the other houses and therefore by themselves throw off the balance. I find it ironic that the house dedicated to keeping the balance is the one most out of balance.

[LucasJamison]

OK, I know it has been mentioned before, but the Helvitia house skills are still way out of balance. There is no counterbalance to them. Most of the other house skills can be countered. ie area effect to those who can not be targetted, surprise for those who can counter abilities, immunities to mental, etc. Of all the things that were out of balance in the new system this is the only real glaring one that was not addressed, and it will come into play soon. Several people went to that house so that they could become more powerful than anyone else. The other houses can not compete with these abilities. Helvetia will become the house of Min/Maxers. Before it gets rediculous perhaps other ways can be suggested
that will keep the spirit of the arbiters of neutrality without having a single house that is WAY out of proportion with the other houses and therefore by themselves throw off the balance. I find it ironic that the house dedicated to keeping the balance is the one most out of balance.

Check the Lightfoot skills and see if you don't see some potential counterbalances.

[wcshoe]

Stop looking at my House Skills!!!!!

[Alf Cunha]

Redirected from IC thread "Making Herself Available":


Before Sebastian can throw the seed, Felegro yells "NOOOO!" with enough force to activate "Voice of the Multiverse."

So everyone here knows - Only Sebastian and I were technically involved in the psudeo-combat so only us two are affected. 

Sixth Tier Skill: Voice of the Multiverse (Y+) An Avatar with this Skill is able to completely suspend a Combat at ANY point, even in the middle of an Action. All Avatars involved in such a Combat are given the option to freely leave the Combat (as if they had successfully Fled), or to continue it in 5 minutes as a NEW Combat (which means that all Avatars involved are healed). 

 
**  OOC - um, yeah ... there's no combat going on so the skill would not work unless Avie wants to make that call (and if that's the case we may be setting a bad precedent here)

(OOC: I'm no longer the rulesmonkey I once was, but it's a tight call - aside from Surprise actions, any Action taken that affects another Avatar, seems to require declaration, and allow for all Avatars affected or interested to draw Initiative.  A strict reading of the rules might include the unintentional activation of an Item with a large blast radius.)

**  OOC:  As a combat GM, I HAVE to be a rulesmonkey   this then brings in the question of noncombat actions ("I'm going to defuse the bomb","no you don't - I end the combat!")


**  Also just noticed a discrepancy in the skill:

or to continue it in 5 minutes as a NEW Combat (which means that all Avatars involved are healed). 

According to the rules, LIFE is restored after 10 minutes, not 5 .... is this a function of the skill or is it an error?

OOC1: A C&P Error. Ten minutes is the proper timing.
OOC2a: Throw it for RP? It won't go off. For all we know, Felegro's VoR is to the Seed itself...
OOC2B: Throw it with the intent of it detonating? Initiate a combat.

 
**  The seed was thrown for rp purposes - but using VoR on the seed also brings up a question: can the skill be used on items/effects?  Say there's a bomb set to detonate at 2:00 pm and the Helvetian is standing there when it's about to go off ... does Voice of Reason prevent the explosion?  I think that's reaching a little out of the purview of the skill (VOICE of Reason being that you can talk people down and have them stop being violent, not a metaphysical ability with time-stopping effect.

[Dragontologist]

(all opinion, as usual, and subject to Vinny interpretation)

As long as ANYONE calls it a combat, it is one.  Performing any action, including defensive actions, can be considered combat if ANYONE in the combat says so.  Felegro called it a combat, in that Seb throwing the seed is an aggressive action - the seed getting far enough away from Fel will cause it to detonate.  Even if it doesn't hurt anyone, it's still an action that 1) causes the destruction of his property, and 2) causes an explosion.  Fel considers it combat, there's no debate over that point. 

Whether the skill actually affects the item - well, there are a few points here.  First, I could argue that throwing the item was the action, and the bomb going off was a REaction.  Fel reacted to the throwing itself, knowing what the reaction would be, and so you could possibly argue that he stopped Sebastian from throwing it. 

Regarding the defusing a bomb aspect - I'm voting that the bomb itself cannot choose to declare it a combat.  If there is someone else who wants to declare it a combat, and they act, they can act with an actual action to stop the person from defusing it, but the bomb itself does not have a choice in the matter.  If no action is made directly against the person defusing, they can still use a non-combat action to stop the bomb.  If someone declares "voice of the multiverse," it would NOT be in the middle of a combat, and would probably not affect anything.  The bomb continues to tick, and the people will still be affected by it. 

If a clock was set, as given in the last example, a Helvetian could possibly declare Voice of the Multiverse, give a free flee action to himself, and get out scott free.  But it's not a combat, because in that example, he might be alone, so I'm not 100% on that.

[wcshoe]

It has already ruled that an annoying RP action is not COMBAT if it has no calculation. Just because it is annoying, doesn't mean it is combat. (Thus Cutthroat can write on Felegro with a sharpie marker, without fear of the spikes.)

ANY action taken that directly results in an effect for offense is considered a combat action. Thus, Felegro is not the one calling it a combat action - Sebastian is, with his throw. Whatever his intent, he is causing an offensive effect by removing the seed from the safety area.

Because it is "roleplay", he is not challenging Felegro's ability to get to it in time to stop the effect from happening. Felegro can either get the seed through unchallenged movement (RP) or by deciding that this is indeed an offensive act on Sebastian's part and using VoR (Combat).

[Alf Cunha]

As long as ANYONE calls it a combat, it is one.

**  In this case I'm going to call this particular statement 8u11$#!+.  You can't declare something combat just because you want to, "hey, he's trying to resurrect that character - I declare combat because I want him to die and thus pre-empt the resurrection", "hey, he's using Hide in Shadows to leave and I don't want him to, I pre-empt it", the same can apply to any ability used outside of combat.

Fel reacted to the throwing itself, knowing what the reaction would be, and so you could possibly argue that he stopped Sebastian from throwing it. 

**  The throw could also be considered a surprise action, since Seb wasn't exactly holding it aloft saying "I'm going to throw this now"

Felegro can either get the seed through unchallenged movement (RP)

**  I actually have no problem with this because it settles the issue without being bogged down in game mechanics.  Seb's intent is not to cause any damage but to remove a potentially dangerous item from the crowd.

[Dragontologist]

Certainly you can declare it a combat, even if it's a non-combat action.  Under non-combat actions: "An “Action” is assumed to be anything which an Avatar does to affect another Avatar or the Nexus itself."  And under the attributes section: "Anytime an Action is taken, it has the potential of sparking a Combat."   In other words, anything you do CAN spark a combat, if ANYONE decides it should.  If someone wants to declare a combat in the middle of a room, make everyone in the room draw for init, even if no one performs any actions that round, and it is a peaceful discussion, it is still a combat.  It'd be annoying and rules-lawyering, but you could sit there and demand everyone follow their initiative orders for no good reason.

The resurrection is certainly a valid point (even Bill's point contradicts that - it has a calculation), but there are other skills and powers that do NOT have calculations that CAN be taken as an aggressive action.  More references from Helvetian house skills:  From Restore Sense: Although this Skill can be used as often as necessary, it requires an Action, and may NOT be performed as a Surprise Action, so the attempt MAY force Combat (and its subsequent Initiative draw) from an interested third party.
Anything that requires an Action to perform, can be acted on as if it were a combat.  Hide in Shadows IS covered under this rule because it states that it can be used at ANY time, "as long as he is not the direct or indirect target of any tangible game effect."  It also goes on to say that "area effects and other indirect effects which affect him will prevent its use as well."  In other words, if someone says "Hey, he's hiding!" they can, indeed, target him to prevent it.  Straight out of the rulebook.