Skill Cap

[D]

Ok I'm stepping up and taking the pointy stick real fast.  Avatar ain't real life.  It ain't always going to be logical.  It ain't always going to fit in to the four panels you wish it would.  Stop trying to force it to.

Now as for personal op-eds on skill caps.  Quad Digit OR's, DR's, etc?  Yeah they're big, but not entirely unprecedented.  Yes, I know there's only about one or two previous examples.  But look at the bloody brilliant minds who drive those pc's, and you'll know exactly why they have such power.  They worked the system, and earned the potentials. 

Here's the thing though, and maybe its my ever loving internal Fleming perspective, but there is not a single one of you who have just joined the titanic power level, that does not have at least one good exploitable weakness.  Even Vladimere Grimme, who showed each and every one of you up quite handily at DEXCON, does indeed have a weakness.  Don't worry Gene, nobody's paid Ash enough to spill it, yet.

Second, there will always be someone better, and you are not intended to play this game solo.  This game has a definite, and unfortunately overly emphasized at times, PVP aspect to it.  Any MMO PVP player wil be more than happy to express to you, that you don't walk in dangerous territory alone, while flagged.  At least, not if you expect to maintain a long existence.  That PVP aspect, yeah its gonna suck sometimes, and you're very likely to get to points where our resident, and current, "Team Evil" is kicking your solo ass on a regular basis. 

Third, there be monsters here, and again you are not intended to play this game solo.  For those that haven't quite delved deep enough, Avatar uses strife, and opposition, and power spiraling to create its plot dynamic.  Houses set in opposition.  Characters set against each other, by the pull of the strings of puppet masters, who stand in opposition of each other.  All in all, conflict is an underlying theme, and unspecified game mechanic.  We're meant to build the bigger board, with the bigger nail. 

So a skill cap.  Yeah, just no.  It goes against the logic of the mechanics.  Every time a "Team Evil", has stuck its neck past the point or irritation, its head gets chopped off.  I know this firsthand, as the scars on my neck are still healing.   Quad digits?  Yep they're bound to occur.  I welcome the challenge and opportunity.  I can't wait to devise a plan to take that scrub out, own their soul,  or sell some other vengeful nub the tactical knowledge to give them their come-uppence.  And I expect to be handed my teeth every so often. 

Ok I'm done.  Now hand me my hammer.  I don't think I need to tell you how to identify it. 8-)

[Mack Ravensline]

      Running the numbers, a Terran at level 11 in house Citadel can have level 8 in Martial Arts. A standard Terran, in a house not Citadel can have at best level 5 in Martial Arts, gaining a level in MA every level from there on. The difference in power between level 8 and level 5 is VERY dramatic. Level 5 MA is +160 OR, +160 DR. at level 8 it is +1280 OR, +1280 DR. The only differnce between these two Terrans is house. A Terran in any other house will have to be level 14 to get that bonus. By the time they draw equal to the Citadel, the Citadel at 14th now has +10,240 OR, +10,240 DR. To me this is a bit of an issue.
        I understand allowing the Citadel to be one level above everyone else, but when the numbers are going up exponentially three levels is insane. If there were caps in place, allowing the Aries in standard weapons and Citadels in MA to be one level above the cap it would still allow the Citadel to be a better MA than anyone else without it being rediculous. I like the idea of a cap of one half your level rounded up on skills. If you have house skills that up these, then it can be 1/2 Lv + 1 rounded up. Without the pressure on the characters to push it up to the limit, they are forced to round out there character with other skills to make them unique. With 3 skill ups, theyare able to use the points for Lord Powers, Defensive skills vs things they are normally vulnerable to, etc. A character in another house can keep up somewhat but at a cost that they are just counting on their house skills to make them unique. It will bring a bit more balance, and more well rounded unique characters.
        The biggest complaint I hear on Avatar system is that to be useful you have to min/max and fall into a type of niche character, (The Citadel MA, The Lugosi Mentalist, The Ares Swordsman, The Renaisance Item Creator, The Octagon Tech). It is not necessarily true but the perception is out there. When a character tries to play a character that is in a different house they feel they are way underpowered and therefore useless. Many of these players drop out before they see how fun the system really is. The hard core players are going to stick with it no matter what and just role play to make up the difference. I am a bt concerned for the casual player who sees a character doing 10,000 points of damage and is scared away thinking they will never reach that. It is all about roleplaying, however numbers mean something too. Just my perception.

[GM John]

It is all about roleplaying, however numbers mean something too. Just my perception.

I agree with that.  And what D says certainly sounds right.  Heck, what everyone has said here sounds right on the screen.  So the question is, what's working out in practice on the game floor?  What are the actually complaints and how valid are they?  How broken is a quad-digit OR in a game where death is only one hour? 

Or is that one hour far more annoying than I give it credit for, not having to experience it myself?  Is the AP loss a greater backslide that I think for the same reason?

If there is a problem, can the GMs-- or rather, the Manifestations-- be a spot fix in the meantime?  Lysander tends to resurrect the fallen he comes across, and that's totally IC, but is it good or bad for the game?

(If that last is too much of a tangent, feel free to spin it off into a new thread.)

[Alf Cunha]

most people are actually more balanced in real life.

**  With the exception of the occasional savant, most people are versed in various skills and abilities.  As Heinlein said, specialization is for insects.  When these skills were first introduced, there were caps - obviously, Vinny had some concerns over how high they should be allowed to go.

It ain't always going to fit in to the four panels you wish it would.  Stop trying to force it to.

**  Say what?

Quad Digit OR's, DR's, etc?  Yeah they're big, but not entirely unprecedented.  Yes, I know there's only about one or two previous examples.  They worked the system, and earned the potentials.

**  It's not a matter of precedent, hell the US tried to wipe out the native people but that doesn't make it an acceptable precedent for Nazi Germany.  I also don't think people should be commended for 'working the system'.

but there is not a single one of you who have just joined the titanic power level, that does not have at least one good exploitable weakness.

**  Of course everyone has an exploitable weakness, that was never the point.  A good player works to cover all his bases as much as possible, but the current system encourages min/maxing because the balanced characters are punished for being good at several different things, rather than incredibly effective at one thing.

there will always be someone better, and you are not intended to play this game solo.  This game has a definite, and unfortunately overly emphasized at times, PVP aspect to it.  Any MMO PVP player wil be more than happy to express to you, that you don't walk in dangerous territory alone, while flagged.  At least, not if you expect to maintain a long existence.

**  That there will always be someone better is, again, getting away from the point.  Though what should be noted is the huge GAP between levels.  A single level of, say, edged weapons can mean hundreds of points of OR.  As for the PVP aspect it's what happens when there are no NPCs or opposing forces other than each other.  If characters had more opponents in-game the PVP would be lessened tremendously because there would be a focus for energy/aggression (NexusCorp was a great foil because it provided the characters with a common enemy - though their ground troops pretty much walked through everything).

**  On a related note is the lack of effectiveness of low-level characters.  When on journeys, the low level characters pretty much just "tag along" while the big boys wreck house and it's not much different in Proper (the only time low-levels actually feel useful is during forced-plot things like the items and flags at Dexcon)

there be monsters here, and again you are not intended to play this game solo.

 

**  Here's the thing, though.  Unless you have a dozen avatars to run through the high-level avatar's AC deck a group of lower-level avatars will be unlikely to take down a higher level.  Again, a character with Martial Arts 5 can easily stave off a half dozen avatars with Martial Arts 4.

So a skill cap.  Yeah, just no.

**  Let's hear it for open debate

Running the numbers, a Terran at level 11 in house Citadel can have level 8 in Martial Arts. A standard Terran, in a house not Citadel can have at best level 5 in Martial Arts

**  I forget who it was who said this, but a while ago someone mentioned that the free levels in, for example, MArts for Citadel allows them to keep up the skills of their house without spending as much in requirements and develop other skills (I want to say it was Vinny who said this, but I'd have to go back a ways in the logs to be sure).

If you have house skills that up these, then it can be 1/2 Lv + 1 rounded up.

**  I'd keep it simple and say everyone has a cap of 1/2 level rounded up (remember, those skill boosts mean you don;t have to pay for the stat requirements - a huge benefit right there).  Although some people prefer the round-down:

(from D, 7 Aug 06): You know I hate to be a downer but I gotta say that the rounded down idea is a much better defense against the uber-crack skill levels, and making a character more balanced.  It makes the members of houses with freebies invest in things other than their skill, say like solid stats, or powers, or other not specialty skills.  It makes you think about how to round out your character, which is what we want right, instead of minmaxxing twinks?