Combat Rules

[Alf Cunha]

**  Run for the hills, Alf is at it again:

1 - Long Range into melee - there has got to be an easier way of doing this (random draw from a separate deck, based on Marksman skill, also based on character size in the group).  Personally, I don;t like complications and would throw this rule out together, but that's me.  Nonetheless, here's a proposal: (1) only make the draw if you miss your target and (2) if you miss while firing into a crowd, have every possible target make an exclusive AC pull, adding their S/M, and the target with the highest pull gets hit (3) if there MUST be an effect based on level of Marksmanship how about making it akin to Cleaving's Threshold [pull of X or better does not hit passer-by]


2 - Throwing Weapons - the idea of unlimited stack "weapon+" becomes scary here because it implies other "item+" items have unlimited stacking ability (weapon with 20 attachments, 10 rings, 3 layers of clothes).  Instead of making throwing weapons "weapon+" how about we just state that a throwing weapons can be equipped (moved into the ready pouch) as a free action?

    The reduction of OR for every 10 feet for Throwing Weapons: how many people are even aware of this rule?  In general, I'd prefer to keep as many complications out of combat as possible and just eliminate this altogether.

    Throwing into a melee - instead of multiple weapons for throwing, how about we do the same thing as Marksmanship?  Allow people to hurl stuff into a melee, but have the same chance of hitting bystanders. As for throwing two daggers at once, I have established rules for semi-automatic fire and dual weapons (with an attack penalty unless you're a high level Ares).


3 - Martial Arts - the restriction seems a bit steep (no items other than Neck or General).  According to this you could use MA while carrying a 10-gallon drum (General, two-handed) but not a ring (Hand).  The traditional restriction of no non-MA Weapons or Armor seems applicable - perhaps adding no non-MA two-handed items.


4 - Cleaving Weapons - while I understand the desire to make them different from other categories, the way Cleaving has been differentiates makes the skill rather impotent.  Edged and Blunt have a +80 and +120 OR respectively at lvl 5 [doubling in successive levels], while Cleaving has a + 55 [with a +15 increase every successive level].  As I've said elsewhere, the Cleaving damage bonus is only good if you actually hit your opponent.


5 - Melee Flexibility - maybe make this skill abit more restrictive insofar as what you can wear is concerned.  I'd suggest not allowing the user of this skill to wear armor at all (or maybe MA armor).


6 - Shield Parry - I would like to say apply this skill only to SR attacks (as SR weapon skills can be stacked with Focus Attack, but Ranged weapons cannot).  A parry is just that - deflecting a melee attack.  For LR attacks, a shield is a shield .. you're not deflecting the bullet as it flies thriugh the air, you're standing behind the shield and hoping they don't hit an exposed foot or shoulder.

.

[LucasJamison]

1 - Long Range

The long range / melee thing makes like, no sense the way I'm reading it.  For example:

If you are trying to shoot someone who is fighting one other person, you have a 1 in 2 chance to hit the intended target.  With Marksmanship Prof 2, you have a 2/2 chance (which should be automatic), but if the target is S/M -3, you have a -2/2 (so, 1/2, in effect) chance.  But if the OTHER combatant is +6 S/M, then you have a 4/2 chance of hitting your target?

Unless it's more like a weighted chance scenario - like pulling names from a hat.  You put a tab in with the name of each target, but targets with + S/M get an extra tab for each level, and vice versa with - S/M, and for each additional level of Marksmanship Proficiency you get an extra tab for the intended target.

But that's like, ridiculously cumbersome to determine in a combat, especially with a system that we know from experience will take hours to resolve large combats even without the additional time needed to determine where a shot into a melee goes.  This will NOT play well.

Anything, even Alf's modification, would serve only to make an already obnoxious process take longer.  If this is an attempt to simulate realism - why start here - there's plenty else in the system that's unrealistic.  If it's a balance thing, doesn't the halving DR cover it?

2 - Throwing Weapons -

For the stacking, I agree with Alf's suggestion.  For the range thing, how do we determine range?  It is real-world distance, or... what?

3 - Martial Arts - the restriction seems a bit steep (no items other than Neck or General).  According to this you could use MA while carrying a 10-gallon drum (General, two-handed) but not a ring (Hand).  The traditional restriction of no non-MA Weapons or Armor seems applicable - perhaps adding no non-MA two-handed items.

The point is to keep people from stacking huge Item bonuses on top of the sick, sick bonuses from MA.  Of course, no matter what the restriction is, if you can have ANY slot filled and still do MA, you'll have an amulet or a cape of protection, or a 50 Gallon drum of Martial Arts Proficiency or something, so I see the whole excercise as ultimately futile.

4 - Cleaving Weapons -

I think the thresholds are a sufficient balance to the additional damage.  Why not change the damage to LIFE modifier to something other than x2, and then bump the OR bonuses into line with the other skills?

5 - Melee Flexibility - maybe make this skill abit more restrictive insofar as what you can wear is concerned.  I'd suggest not allowing the user of this skill to wear armor at all (or maybe MA armor).

Melee Flexibility is what, Martial Arts Lite, without the possibility of defending against LR?   Whatever the restriction is, it should be less than the restriction on MA.

6 - Shield Parry - I would like to say apply this skill only to SR attacks (as SR weapon skills can be stacked with Focus Attack, but Ranged weapons cannot).  A parry is just that - deflecting a melee attack.  For LR attacks, a shield is a shield .. you're not deflecting the bullet as it flies thriugh the air, you're standing behind the shield and hoping they don't hit an exposed foot or shoulder.

Well, in the Nexus, you COULD build a shield that blocks against LR - force fields, magic shields, and you're damned straight even in fantasy settings you see shields being used to block or catch bolts and arrows.

Also, there has to be SOME counter to long range attacks.  Only MA allows for defense against them, if you drop it from Shield Parry.

[Alf Cunha]

The long range / melee thing makes like, no sense the way I'm reading it.  For example:

**  Personally, I'd rather throw out the whole "chance to hit a bystander" altogether (I am in full agreement that it's an unnecessary complication)

Throwing Weapons - For the stacking, I agree with Alf's suggestion.  For the range thing, how do we determine range?  It is real-world distance, or... what?

[size=8t]**  Ranges have not really come into play at all - and given we are restricted by hotel space I don' really foresee them coming into play in the future[/size]

The point is to keep people from stacking huge Item bonuses on top of the sick, sick bonuses from MA.  Of course, no matter what the restriction is, if you can have ANY slot filled and still do MA, you'll have an amulet or a cape of protection, or a 50 Gallon drum of Martial Arts Proficiency or something, so I see the whole excercise as ultimately futile.

Compare these two and tell me MArts needs that much restriction:

Level 5 Martial Arts (200AP + 75AGI)  275 AP for +280 combined

Level 5 Edged & Melee Flex (75AP + 100AP + 80AGI) 255 AP for +320 combined

4 - Cleaving Weapons - I think the thresholds are a sufficient balance to the additional damage.  Why not change the damage to LIFE modifier to something other than x2, and then bump the OR bonuses into line with the other skills?

**  I think a flat bonus (as opposed to multiplier) and a higher OR bonus would be the best answer

Melee Flexibility is what, Martial Arts Lite, without the possibility of defending against LR?   Whatever the restriction is, it should be less than the restriction on MA.

**  Dodging got folded into Melee Flex - you can use it against LR at higher levels (it was posted somewhere by Vinny, don't know where it is at the moment)

Well, in the Nexus, you COULD build a shield that blocks against LR - force fields, magic shields, and you're damned straight even in fantasy settings you see shields being used to block or catch bolts and arrows.

**  Yes, though those would be a function of the ability/power of the shield as opposed to the user's ability to deflect incoming attacks

Also, there has to be SOME counter to long range attacks.  Only MA allows for defense against them, if you drop it from Shield Parry.

**  As I said, when Dodging and Melee Flex were combined it allowed for defense against LR (which, again, begs for the increase of Marksmanship to put it on par with the other weapon skills)


.

[Alf Cunha]

**  Ah, found it:

10) I have decided to DROP the Dodging Skill altogether. In tweaking the other skills, it seems as though the Skill is useless and just not justified in the scheme of things, and the points are much better spent in Melee Flexibility anyway.

Melee Flexibility will be changed slightly, as follows:

Melee Flexibility (Y+). Cost: 10 AP. Stat Requirements: AGI 10. An Avatar with this Skill gains a bonus of +5 OR and +10 DR during all Short Range (P) Targetted Attacks. This bonus is applied whether he attacks or is attacked, but does not apply to Offensive DR for Long Range Attacks. This Skill cannot be used if he has any Item in his Ready Pouch with any OR Penalty.

Proficiency 2: 20AP, AGI 20, +10 OR, +20 DR.
Proficiency 3: 30AP, AGI 30, +20 OR, +40 DR.
Proficiency 4: 40AP, AGI 40, +30 OR, +80 DR, DR bonus can be used vs. ANY Short Range Targetted attack EXCEPT (K), (X) or (Z).
Proficiency 5: 50AP, AGI 40, +40 OR, +160 DR, DR bonus can be used vs. ANY Targetted attack EXCEPT (K), (X) or (Z).
etc.

>>>Vinny

[LucasJamison]

Compare these two and tell me MArts needs that much restriction:

Level 5 Martial Arts (200AP + 75AGI)  275 AP for +280 combined

Level 5 Edged & Melee Flex (75AP + 100AP + 80AGI) 255 AP for +320 combined

If Melee Flex works at LR, you're right.  If it doesn't, then I maintain that MA's usefulness at range still warrants the restriction, but that the particular implementation doesn't seem to make much sense.  I think a more pertinent restriction would be that MA can't be combined with Item-based OR/DR bonuses, as that seems to be the real intent behind the restriction.

Also, even if Melee Flex works at LR, Level 5 Edged doesn't, so you're still limited to partial value against LR, so the total LR effective DR bonus is still like 40 pts or so lower.

**  I think a flat bonus (as opposed to multiplier) and a higher OR bonus would be the best answer

That works for me, too, my point was more that if it's a balance issue, drop the potential damage bonus to balance out the increases in OR that would bring it in line with the other skills.  How that's done, I don't much care.

**  Dodging got folded into Melee Flex - you can use it against LR at higher levels (it was posted somewhere by Vinny, don't know where it is at the moment)

I was going off the published version of the new rules.  I know, I know, relying solely on the published rules for guidance, silly.

**  Yes, though those would be a function of the ability/power of the shield as opposed to the user's ability to deflect incoming attacks

**  As I said, when Dodging and Melee Flex were combined it allowed for defense against LR (which, again, begs for the increase of Marksmanship to put it on par with the other weapon skills)

If Melee Flex is useful against LR, then I'd be more inclined to agree with you on this.  Except that it WOULD still be consistent with the other progressive DR-weighted combat skills, in that they all allow for LR defense at higher levels - perhaps a general function of heightened defensive skill IS to include LR defense, regardless of the form the defense takes, in the Nexus?

[LucasJamison]

**  Ah, found it:

Wow... so, will MA still block Zany?  If so, I can see reasons for getting MA.  If not, what's the major difference betweeen MA and MF?  For the cost differential, you can find something much cheaper to make up the OR difference, and the DR, with it's long range effectiveness, is even higher for MF!

[Lovious]

As per Martial Art's vs Zany

It says that at level 5 its DR works against any targetted attacks except spiritual and magical attacks.

The only two powers in zany would be the Guided Projectile and BOOM (which has a typo in the paragraph btw).

Now against a Guided Projectile, I think that the extra protection of 300 DR won't help much against anyone with more then 40 EM to pump into it... so the point is mostly moot.

However, BOOM is such a weaker attack, that MA would make it useless against anyone with less then 300+ EM  So then it is relevent.

So there you go... the question is was MA 5 supposed to be able to dodge avalanches, falling anvils, and sudden existance failures?  If so, then hey... seems silly, but we'll deal.  If not though, then the wording needs to be fixed.

[Alf Cunha]

**  I may be mistaken, but I don't see anything stating that if you're under the influence os a mental action, you can not be affected by anyone else.  If this is, in fact, the case I approve it.  Lugosi has long been hypnotizing each other to make themselves immune to mental actions (as a Lugosi, and as a player in general, I think this is an abuse of the written rules - allowable or not).  If this is an oversight I recommend implementing it as a rule - if you're MIND is too low to resist mental actions, having someone hypno you to resist them is NOT an acceptable ethod of CYA (if you get caught between two mentalists, you're screwed ... "attack him!""yes mistress!""no, attack her!""yes master!""no, attack him!""damn, I need to raise my mental defense!")

[LucasJamison]

re: multiple mental influences

I quite agree.

[Alf Cunha]

**  The main question I'd like an answer to (as it impacts one of my characters greatly - take a wild guess which one):  is Marksmanship/Throwing going to be fixed or are we going to keep the progression we have now?  The current progression is really underpowered compared to ... well ... everything else.

[TheonlyShamus]

Combat related question(s) for the GM's. Are Ares the only ones that can duel wield weapons? Sub question if so is there a skill anyone can buy to do the same thing i know its a house power but i would think with enough training anyone should be able to do it and pull it off. I did think up of a couple of things for calculations such as it wont be 2 attacks you make its still one attack with a higher bonus.

IE: If Avatar A shoots Avatar B with his to laser pistols which does X each. the the calculation would be as follows  X+(x/2)+AC+Mod=Total Being the gun in the off hand is halved of power but still does something.

Just a lil' thing i thought of in a dream so it adds a new dimention to things.

[Alf Cunha]

**  There are pistol-type weapons with the 'Semi-Auto' designation that allow you to do this.  'Semi-Auto' weapons allow you to make two attacks simultaneously, but you suffer an offensive DR penalty to each attack.

Just a lil' thing i thought of in a dream so it adds a new dimention to things.

**  Ask Rob/Zane about my tendency to deflate people's dreams about 'new' item ideas