re: official...

[LucasJamison]

As a follow-up to the official thread - was there a particular reason why the power trump skills in the mental order of precedence?

[D]

Good question.

Simple answer:  As general rule of thumb, When effects are similar, such as the mental manipulation in this case, powers will always tend to trump skills.

Long Technical Answer:  A power, by simple definition, requires the channeling of EM, to produce an effect.  EM among other varied things, is a representation of the raw stuff of reality.  A skill, at its simple definition, requires nothing but a practiced talent of some sort.  To bend, shape, and mold raw reality requires a great deal more exertion, and expenditure of internal power.

 In this example, a hypnosis and a mesmerize may look very similar in roleplay, but mechanically one is using a rationale of mundane standards, and one of supernatural standards.

 Possession, trumps all of them, because by its very nature you are supplanting virtually all the free will of your target and taking them over wholecloth.

[LucasJamison]

Simple answer:  As general rule of thumb, When effects are similar, such as the mental manipulation in this case, powers will always tend to trump skills.

That's what it seemed like, was just checking.

[cattana423]

in follow up to the warp reality conversation going on else where  frigemall wrote "In this case, the power is nearly useless. It has been gutted to where I would never have paid 25 points on it. The old version had a x3 modifier at least, and only cost 15AP. Can I give up this now useless power and get the points back? As a  toon 25pts is alot. It was not at Convert-o-rama this ruling was made, I was there and the ruling was what was on the board. If this rule had been put out then I would have avoided this power like the plague. I am not being snippy here but I simply do not want that power as it is written. If the rule is still open for discussion I will hang on and see what happens. But if this is it, I want my points back to spend on other things.'

Wouldn't that depend on if you have ever used the power in any interaction before? If you have then you cant get rid of it and get the points back because  then you would have to retcon all those interactions and everything that ever came from them .I think your best options would be figure out a way to make the power useful as it stands <I can see a couple very crafty uses already < or you can try to get a rule change for next time .If you have never used  it changing it out would seem more feasible . Powers get changed and adjusted all the time  some times it just sucks and makes you have to up your game

[Frigemall]

Well, since the few times I have used it since then it was as was interpreted originally on the rules section, technically those same scenes would have to be retconed anyway. At Convert-o-rama I was under the impression it was a completely different power. If it was a smaller point cost or had a multiplier it would still be a power with some limited usage, however, it is certainly not worth 25 pts as written. And since it has been used with the ruling that was on the original rules thread, alot of scenes involving toons would be retconed. I simply think that if a power is this seriously changed, the affected player should have the option of dropping it for something more useful. If not I will not be happy, but will live with it. As I said, if the power is still open for discussion, I will happily wait on this and see. I can live without Warp Reality either way.

[SigmaCaine]

IIRC, in the past when powers/skills have been changed significantly players have had the option of re-spending the points, and retconning has never happened. It's just been a slight shift in the fabric of reality - a smaller-scale version of what happened IC'ly at Convert-O-Rama.

[D]

The power is not still open for discussion.  

AP Refunds are on a case by case basis, and subject to approval by Avie or Vinnie.

For what it is worth, I'd like to try and put this into perspective for a second.  You claim it has been "gutted".  Based on my knowledge of the complete range and array of powers, and their costs, including the Lord Powers I have had reported to me, this really is not all that disproportionate in cost to any of the other "high-end" powers in other genres.

First, just for comparative reference let me list the other, standard book, 25 AP cost powers out there
-Dampening Field (Tech)
-Nano-Magnetism (Tech)
-Nuclear Area Attack (Tech)
-Paralyze (Goth)
-Possesion (Goth)

That's the list in its entirety.  These are the "top-tier" powers of their genres.  Nothing, short of the high power tech adaptations costs anything more.  

Comparatively, Warp Reality puts all of these to shame with the pure utility capabilities, because it can modify any PRIMARY or SECONDARY stat.  It also has the same effect calculation as an Elemental Area Effect, one of the single largest(on average calculations) available short of Power Punch or the "Toon explosives".

Beyond that, even under the old wording, it still only affected one component of a calculation in the Item, Skill, or Power used.  Not the sum total.  You'd still have to deal with whatever remained, including the base stats and the AC pick.  That was a point that was going to be included if I had had to provide summary ruling on the wording that existed previously.  Admittedly, in this specific case, that would likely be trying to affect the Martial Arts skill bonus, which I'll wager a guess is upwards of +360 OR for Sebastian as a Citadel.  

Now originally, a warper had the multiplier, because they had to match or exceed whatever they were trying to warp, and the multiplier was there to provide a fair chance for the big calculations.  Then it was modded to the 3.x Beta wording you have been working on, and it was noticed that for a simple 3 AC success check number like +360 OR, that was sweated and bled for in a great deal more AP, could just be negated.  That simply was not proportionate with a 25 AP cost.  So it got changed to what was posted today, which was agreed upon by Vinny, the combat GMs of the period, and Mike Smith, the ranking toon player of the Nexus and a trusted former Nexus GM himself, who raised many of the same issues being raised right now.

Now yes, I will not dispute that proportionately 25 AP is a heavier chunk for a Toon Avatar.  However, Toons *still* get the security of not having to suffer a hole punch 99.99% of the time, and never ever being completely removed from the game for an hour.  This is a stunning advantage.  The argument that you are not getting your AP penalties' worth, has been shown over and over to not hold water.

[Kate Beaman-Martinez]

It was not at Convert-o-rama this ruling was made, I was there and the ruling was what was on the board.

(Just a point of clarirty here Mark, you were NOT there for this particular conversation as it was a PRIVATE GM meeting where we were discussing things away from player ears. I'll let D and Vinny handle the rest.)

[Frigemall]

Are you saying this can now be warped into luck bonus again, since it is a secondary calculation?

[Avie]

(Just a point of clarirty here Mark, you were NOT there for this particular conversation as it was a PRIVATE GM meeting where we were discussing things away from player ears. I'll let D and Vinny handle the rest.)

And, if I remember correctly, Mike Smith WAS there for the discussion, as a combat/assistant GM.

[Mack Ravensline]

And, if I remember correctly, Mike Smith WAS there for the discussion, as a combat/assistant GM.

OK, I'm glad that someone was there that has played a toon and has a firm grasp on balancing the numbers involved. I have gone over the wording of it several times since my initial reaction, and it is not as bad as what I originally believed I saw. The fact that it is not an all or nothing ability like it was in 2.6 is what I was not seeing. I still think that the cost of 25 AP is high for what it is now, being that it is a toon ability that really can only be used in certain limited ways. I would think a cost of 15 or 20 pts would be a better cost for a toon, since the reason it was originally upped was because it stopped all the damage. But I will not argue it any further, and will abide by whatever you all deem fair.

[Avie]

OK, I'm glad that someone was there that has played a toon and has a firm grasp on balancing the numbers involved. I have gone over the wording of it several times since my initial reaction, and it is not as bad as what I originally believed I saw. The fact that it is not an all or nothing ability like it was in 2.6 is what I was not seeing. I still think that the cost of 25 AP is high for what it is now, being that it is a toon ability that really can only be used in certain limited ways. I would think a cost of 15 or 20 pts would be a better cost for a toon, since the reason it was originally upped was because it stopped all the damage. But I will not argue it any further, and will abide by whatever you all deem fair.

That almost sounds like an apology for a knee-jerk reaction to a game staff that is trying hard to be fair to everybody.

[LucasJamison]

Figured I'd keep this here, despite being unrelated to the initial topic.

WRT prerequisites - when are they applied? Asking specifically in respect to Skills, I suppose, but if there are other areas where it applies, I'd be happy to have an answer there, too.

[D]

Are you saying this can now be warped into luck bonus again, since it is a secondary calculation?

No it cannot. My apologies, I made a broad generalization while typing in a state of exhaustion.  The official wording, on the errata thread is correct in its statement that LUC and LB are not acceptable places to put warped points.  Thank you for double checking that.

[D]

WRT prerequisites - when are they applied? Asking specifically in respect to Skills, I suppose, but if there are other areas where it applies, I'd be happy to have an answer there, too.

I'm sorry to ask for this Dave, but would you please expand of the abbreviations and nature of this question?  I'm not quite following what you're asking.