Flying Around - Tangent

[Sebastian Kirsch]

†  Bringing this over from the In-Character Thread

In this case, the power is nearly useless.

†  Hardly, it is a reaction to any power or skill in the game which can be applied to just about any stat.  Granted, sometimes an effect will be too much for it, but them's the breaks.

Can I give up this now useless power and get the points back?

†  Such has been done in the past when there have been ruling clarifications/changes

As a  toon 25pts is alot.

†  Yeah, it is - but then again, in the given situation it was a 25AP power being used against a skill whose cost totaled 200AP

It was not at Convert-o-rama this ruling was made

†  It was made during Convert-O-Rama, but circumastances were such that not everyone was there when it was made.  Attempts were made to spread the word, but some people just didn;t get the memo and things sort of fell through the cracks between then and now

But if this is it, I want my points back to spend on other things.

†  As stated earlier, there have been instances in the past when people were allowed to eliminate a skill or power because of extenuating circumstances, so I wouldn't be panicking just yet.  As an aside, don't forget that this power does not just apply to OR attacks, there are tons of things in the system that can be warped - keep in mind that OR/DR and MIND have been scaled up tremendously so Warp is not going to be really effective against the primary attacks of Combat/Mental monsters but it will be quite useful against other powers.

[Dragontologist]

Figured I'll post in here, since I had basicly the same thing to say. This power is TOTALLY worth the cost.  In my opinion, Warp Reality is just another form of defense, just like Combat Flexibility or Shield Parry, both of which cost MUCH MORE to get to that level of defense!

In the example below, I'm taking someone who has managed to acquire Martial Arts 5.   Easy enough by a Citadel, probably average-ish damage for a Terran character at level 10. 

So, Avatar A is kicking you.  They are doing 20 OR with a +160 damage from MA5, and you only have 30EM.  Using that 30 EM, you can cause [ (3AC + EM), let's call it 60 points of effect on average ] of that bonus from MA5 to add to your CON* (instead of subtracting life).  This causes your life to increase by 120 (not including any size/mass modifications).  Now, the remaining 20 OR + 130 damage gets shot at you.  Okay, but so what?  You're going to absorb 120 of it and still not have it affect your initial life - so that means that you only have to really worry about the extra 30 points of damage.  And once you factor in armor, and your own defenses, and an AC pull, this is next to nothing.  Or should be, if you have even a moderate amount of gear/skills/powers.  Heck, if you have enough, you could end up GAINING life!

Now, this was just one example.  But 25 AP for the ability to wreck someone's attack that thoroughly is pretty impressive - especially since it's not limited to attacks aimed at you!  Try to find other defensive powers that can absorb 120 points of defense using only 30 EM - you'll be hard pressed, I can tell you now.  The closest one is Defensive Forcefield, at (2AC+EM), and that's still one AC pull away (although it IS an area of effect) - and has a host of restrictions, like "only physical attacks" and "Cannot be used as a reaction."  And even that is 20AP to buy!

Now, of course, this argument goes out the window by the time someone reaches MA 7 or 8, or is attacking with a tech multiplier (30EMx4 = 120 points of effect).  But honestly, by then, it's not like anything defends against it anyway.  So your choice, by then, is a) attack in a team, or 2) attack first.



*  Remember, however, that causing an attack to add to your CON is pretty damn weird, and you ought to be thinking up justifications and good RP to let it happen correctly - even if it's as simple as "That kick cured my arthritis!  Thanks!" or "What were you thinking, shooting a black hole at a singularity?"

[Mack Ravensline]

Only problem with this arguement is that if you do the example you speak of, your EM is pretty much gone, and the Martial Artist will go again the next round with the same basic attack, this time with nothing to stop it. It is by no means equal.

[LucasJamison]

So, Avatar A is kicking you.  They are doing 20 OR with a +160 damage from MA5, and you only have 30EM.  Using that 30 EM, you can cause [ (3AC + EM), let's call it 60 points of effect on average ] of that bonus from MA5 to add to your CON* (instead of subtracting life).  This causes your life to increase by 120 (not including any size/mass modifications).  Now, the remaining 20 OR + 130 damage gets shot at you.  Okay, but so what?  You're going to absorb 120 of it and still not have it affect your initial life - so that means that you only have to really worry about the extra 30 points of damage.  And once you factor in armor, and your own defenses, and an AC pull, this is next to nothing.  Or should be, if you have even a moderate amount of gear/skills/powers.  Heck, if you have enough, you could end up GAINING life!

Can you change the target of the effect in question, with Warp Reality?

Martial Arts does NOT provide an effect of "reducing life" from the person getting hit. It provides a + to OR for the Martial Artist (in the example you're noting, anyhow - I suppose if the toon is, for unknowable reason, punching the martial artist, the Toon would have cause to Warp the + to DR).

Last, when you get a temporary boost to a primary stat, from Warp or something else, do your secondary stats actually recalculate on the fly like that?

[Dragontologist]

You can't change the target of the attack or the effect - you'd need Redirection or some kind of insane lord power to make that work. 

And as far as the whole "reducing life" aspect, no, it doesn't work like that.  It isn't really "absorbing" damage, it's just extra life that you didn't have before.  But it provided an easier way to describe it than with actual numbers (though I did go through it with a calculator to make sure I was doing it right) - no one wants to see 3 paragraphs of calculations.   There is no math.

As far as primary/secondary stats... not sure.  I'd assume so, with the secondary stats lasting equally as temporary as the primary ones, but I'll let D confirm that.

[D]

Target does not change with Warp Reality.  That remains constant.  There are only a few means of changing targets.

When you get a temp boost to the primary stat, it does indeed force a temp recalc of the secondaries.

[LucasJamison]

Target does not change with Warp Reality.  That remains constant.  There are only a few means of changing targets.

So, yeah... with a Power, like Energy Bolt, the "value" would all come from the calculation, which targets (in the case of Energy Bolt) the person you are shooting. But with a Skill, the "value" is often in the form of a bonus. In the case of Martial Arts, that bonus applies to the Avatar who has Martial Arts on his or her CC.

So, when you warp all or part of the value of the skill, then doesn't the warped value have to apply to the origina target: the martial artist?

When you get a temp boost to the primary stat, it does indeed force a temp recalc of the secondaries.

That is sweet. But probably really annoying in application.

[D]

Well.... 

A combat skill does not have a target per se, only an owner.  It would be better to picture it as a metaphorical tool, hanging on a metaphorical tool belt.  While sitting on the belt it only has an owner and does nothing.  When used, its effect is another power source, which is "targeting" the greater sum force being applied to an external object.  What Warp Reality is altering, is the way that specific component, of the greater sum force, interacts with the external object.  IE changing the mode from damage to something else.

So no it doesn't affect the martial artist, because nothing in this case was targeting said martial artist to begin with.

Really good question though!

[LucasJamison]

That is... entirely unclear from, and counterintuitive to, the current text of the power. Because the skill itself very much does affact the skill-user/owner's OR stat, per Skill description, in most cases.

Hence the need for these clarifications, I suppose.

[D]

Review again. 

None of the combat skills claim a target anywhere in their wording.  They only provide a bonus, exactly like an item does.  The wording is "An avatar with this skill".  They own the skill.  The skill affects the force, just like an item does.  But when you warp an item, it still doesn't affect the owner of the item, or the item itself, it affects whatever output the item is adding to the sum total calc.  Same thing goes for a skill.

[LucasJamison]

Please keep in mind that I'm not arguing your ability or right to say the rules mean anything you want to say they mean. When it comes to rulings, if you say 5 is 3 and blue is red, then that's that, and I'll reserve my "boo" 'til later.

But I present the following as a way of expressing my confusion over your reasoning:

The Power description for Warp Reality states that one can warp the numerical effect of a Skill, Item, or Power when it affects any Primary or Secondary stat.

For instance, as per the Power description, Energy Bolt - after offensive and defensive calcs are done, there is 12 damage calculated - this is the Power (Energy Bolt) affecting a Secondary stat (the victim's LIFE).

Martial Arts, as a for isntance, is a Skill that is affecting a Secondary Stat (in this case, both OR and DR, though only one can, presumably, be chosen per use of Warp).

Items with continuous effects are explicitly exempt from Warp Reality (side note: I wonder about Weapons... are they now classed as activated?), and the rest of that statement could be read to imply that no Skill or Power with a continuous effect can be Warped, either - it's a bit unclear on that point.

Also, it's a little unclear as to what would make a Skill effect continuous, or when it activates, as the texts read slightly differently, but in the case of Martial Arts it specifically reads "this bonus is applied both when he is attacking and..." which indicates that the Skill affects the Secondary stat at the time of the attack (while making the offensive calc, in other words). Martial Arts, for one, never directly affects the target's LIFE score (per Energy Bolt example) - it provides a bonus to a Secondary stat. That stat is then used as one component of a separate calculation that determines damage ("1 AC Pick + OR + modifiers").

If the skills are meant to be read "adds +X to Offensive Calculation involving OR", then it might be less confusing to actually say that. However, it would seem that the Skill then becomes unWarpable, because it does NOT affect a Primary or Secondary stat.

[D]

Ok Dave, hold up a sec.  I think you're discriminating and over thinking more than you need to here.

Most Weapons do not have continuous effects.  They are activated.

An avatar has an OR, that is the stat on his/her CC, an item has an OR that is listed on the card, and the combat skill has an OR that is listed in its description. 

When you attack you make a non power based, Offensive Calculation, that combines the OR's of all these separate sources, plus more OR generated by random draw, into one sum total of OR effect.  They are among the "appropriate modifiers" that are spoken of frequently in the book.

You are warping the OR of the Skill, which when being used, is intended to affect the LIFE of its target.  So yeah its perfectly warpable.

A skill that has a continuous effect is presumed to be in effect unless its owner says otherwise.  But nowhere does it say that you cannot warp a continuous skill.  Also Combat Skills are not continuous, they are activated when the owner says they are. 

There are many things, that over the years, as we've gotten comfortable with the system, we've just started contracting them, and not doing EVERY minutia of the steps.  Sometimes, it processes too long and the root ideas get corrupted, and we need to remind everyone of the intermediary minutia steps that are in there.  We really do not want to put every last one of these minutia into the book. 

On lighter note: If you want to question why not, come stop by me sometime and let me show you the copy of the 1.x series avatar rule book I carry in the binder of my 3.x rule book.  I'll show you the DRASTIC size change between the two, which has come about because of the need to include minutia because of people searching for holes to take advantage of.  If we put EVERY logic behind the way EVERY interaction works, you'd never be able to finish the book, and many would get lost in those logics.  Those are more for the unofficial GM's guide.  Like the difference between a Player's Handbook, and a DMG.

[LucasJamison]

Ok Dave, hold up a sec.  I think you're discriminating and over thinking more than you need to here.

This may be true, however, this:

An avatar has an OR, that is the stat on his/her CC, an item has an OR that is listed on the card, and the combat skill has an OR that is listed in its description. 

When you attack you make a non power based, Offensive Calculation, that combines the OR's of all these separate sources, plus more OR generated by random draw, into one sum total of OR effect.  They are among the "appropriate modifiers" that are spoken of frequently in the book.

You are warping the OR of the Skill, which when being used, is intended to affect the LIFE of its target.  So yeah its perfectly warpable.

A skill that has a continuous effect is presumed to be in effect unless its owner says otherwise.  But nowhere does it say that you cannot warp a continuous skill.  Also Combat Skills are not continuous, they are activated when the owner says they are. 

Is not, actually at all in line with the rules published online. They simply do not say these things. SKILLS have "OR"? Items have "OR"? Of their own? Since when did skills and items have stats? This is, if anything, even more confusing that before.

If we put EVERY logic behind the way EVERY interaction works, you'd never be able to finish the book, and many would get lost in those logics.  Those are more for the unofficial GM's guide.  Like the difference between a Player's Handbook, and a DMG.

1) I think have a copy of the old rules, somewhere. It's what, 2 double-sided pages in length? Very short, IIRC. Possibly printed as part of the mailer for Dreamations 97/98? Then you had the powers, published separately, 1 sheet per tier, 3 tiers per genre (except for Toons, who had 2, I think). So, another 17ish pages there. Plus a cavalcade of Items and uncodified ad hoc rulings and plotline/event specific powers and such. So, while the core "books" look a lot shorter, the compiled errata dwarfed the "1.0" published material.

2) The idea of writing an internally consistent piece of any sort, is that you can establish the core logic early on and expect the user to remember it, then you only have to deal with a few, limited, deviations from the rule. You don't have to re-explain the core at each step - just make it clear up front.

[LucasJamison]

Let me put this in terms of the what the rules say (as distinct from how you interpret them, or what they mean, or were meant to say - because I am a poor mind reader). There are, please note, a few inconsistencies in the rule text with regard concepts that I am addressing. However, none of the quoted sections below are directly contradicted by other rule text.

I think the easiest way to break this down is to take an example calculation that demonstrates the issue I'm having.

In Combat, an Avatar can use a Short Range Combat as his or her Action. This consists of an Offensive Calculation (1 AC Pick + OR + modifiers). 

Element  #1 - AC Pick

I don't think there is any confusion on AC Picks at this time.

Element #2 - OR

Secondary Stat on Avatar CC, as modified directly by various effects of Skills, Powers, Items, or what have you. Such modifications are sometimes noted on the card themselves by using a sticky label, and sometimes just remembered by the Player.

Element #3 - modifiers

Anything else that applies a modifier to the specific Offensive Calculation in question. Skills, Items, Powers, etc that affect Offensive Calculations generally contain text explicitly defining which calculations they apply to, and how.

Weapons are a good example. These are Items, which have a Value. Quoting from the rules:

Value: When the Item is a Weapon, this characteristic shows the value added to the Offensive Calculation.

So, Weapons add their Value to the Offensive Calculation directly (unless, of course, stated otherwise).

=========

Okay, that stated, take the following scenario. Avatar A has announced that his Action will be to strike Avatar B using a Short Range Combat action. Nothing prevents him from doing so, and all preconditions for taking this action are met.

The following calculation occurs:

1) AC Pick

Avatar A has an LB of 0 and a the Pick results in an 8.

So, the Calculation is: "8 + "

2) OR

Base OR is, for sake of argument, 20. Avatar A has Martial Arts I. Per skill text:

Martial Arts (Y+). Cost: 20 AP. Stat Requirements: AGI 15. An Avatar with this Skill gains a bonus of +10 OR and +10 DR for all Short Range (P) Combat (only), as long as he does not have any Item in his Held slots (unless the Item is specifically designated as Martial Arts-Compatible). This bonus is applied both when he is attacking and when he is attacked. The bonus is not to be used for any other Action, nor for any sort of Long Range Combat.

Avatar A's first "Held" slot contains a Martial Arts-Compatible Item, specifically a Weapon. All other Held slots are empty. Avatar A is engaging in Short Range (P) Combat. Avatar A is attacking.

Martial Arts now applies a +10 OR bonus.

OR is 30, for purposes of Offensive Calculation.

The Calculation is now: "8 + (20+10) +"

3) Modifiers

For this example, Avatar A's weapon has a Value of 5. There are no other applicable modifiers in this example.

The Calculation is now "8 + (20+10) + 5".

=========

I'm going to assume your statement that Items and Skills have OR values was a simplification you were using in an attempt to break things down for me, and not a literal statement.

If so, you appear to be saying that when Martial Arts (or some skill with similar text) states "+10 OR", it should be read as "+10 modifier to Offensive Calculation".

The calculation would then read "8 + 20 + (10+5)".

If so, then I would request a change to the rules (as published) so that it is made clear when they mean OR when they mean Offensive Calculation. Though they may be safely conflated in most cases, there are situations where Offensive Calculation has nothing to do with OR at all, and times when OR has nothing to do with Offensive Calculation at all.

Such a change ads no additional text, or complexity, to the rules. It should be a matter of FIND NEXT with the occasional REPLACE.

=========


The other stuff builds on this. So until I get this, it's not worth going on about the rest.

[D]

Dave, here is the best chapter and verse I can provide to you at this time.

AS 3.0 BETA 3, page 14, Section "Combat Actions", subsection "Short Range Combat", paragraph 2 of the subsection beginning with "Now the Combatant calculates his Offense."

It clearly states that skills and powers may add to this offense, provided they do not constitute a separate attack.  It then lists the calculation for the effect to be (1AC + OR + Modifiers).  As you guessed, this calculation represent the random source of Offensive Rating, the base Offensive Rating on the CC, and the Modifiers Source which may include Skills, Items, and Powers.

OR stands for Offensive Rating.  OR is both stat on the CC, and the name for a unit of measurement for Offensive Calculations.  No, that is not written verbatim in the book.  But it can be logically construed, using the sum total of knowledge contained within the book.

Under that notion, there are MANY forms of and sources for an Offensive Rating.  Items and Skills do possess an Offensive Rating, but they do not enter the Offensive Calculation equation until such time as their owner declares they are employing them to.  When all Offensive Ratings are totaled up in an action they become the end Offensive Calculation.    

You are, through Warp, affecting one of the modifying Offensive Rating components of the Offensive Calculation, and turning it from a damaging effect to another effect of your choosing, within the limits described.  You are modifying one of the modifiers.