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Author Topic: Love Finally Wins Over Hate  (Read 10844 times)

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Kate Beaman-Martinez

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Love Finally Wins Over Hate
« on: October 28, 2009, 05:50:09 PM »

http://www.hrc.org/sites/loveconquershate/index.asp

Took way to long to pass, but I'm glad that it's FINALLY here.
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Mack Ravensline

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Re: Love Finally Wins Over Hate
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2009, 01:22:20 PM »

This legislation probably could have been avoided if Judges simply would have enforced the laws on the books. Why someone commits a crime should not really come into play. If someone commits a crime they should pay for it to the full extent of the law. Someone who murders someone should not get a seperate penalty because he targeted that person because he/she did not like their race, sex, religion, etc. They should be put away because they committed a crime. The sentancing faze is when the judge is supposed to take in mitigating factors, like if the criminal has repented, or if he/she committed the crime because he/she has a hatred for a specific race, sex, religion, etc. If he/she is likely to do it again if given the chance, because they hate a specific group of people, this should be taken into account and the longer sentances should be meted out.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 08:21:33 AM by Mack Ravensline »
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LucasJamison

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Re: Love Finally Wins Over Hate
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2009, 09:02:50 AM »

Someone who murders someone should not get a seperate penalty because he targeted that person because he/she did not like their race, sex, religion, etc.

Why not?
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Mark

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Re: Love Finally Wins Over Hate
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2009, 10:21:07 AM »

Why not? Because you are criminalizing thoughts. And that is a dangerous precedent.

If Action is a crime and Action+Thought is a worse crime then shouldn't the Thought by itself be considered a crime? It's not a big jump and the Orwellian prospect of Thought Police does not appeal to me at all.
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Kate Beaman-Martinez

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Re: Love Finally Wins Over Hate
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2009, 10:53:23 AM »

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_hat5.htm says it clearly, so pardon me while I lift it with attribution:

Quote
"The legislation is needed. Protecting a group under hate crimes legislation will make the public aware that the group is vulnerable, has been extensively victimized in the past, and is in need of protection. Many victims have been attacked by strangers because of their gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or ability status in the past. These are particularly heinous crimes. Legislation should be expanded to cover them." reference,
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LucasJamison

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Re: Love Finally Wins Over Hate
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2009, 11:05:30 AM »

http://www.hrc.org/sites/loveconquershate/index.asp
Took way to long to pass, but I'm glad that it's FINALLY here.

Finally, but not enough. 's pretty weak, as it is.

Then, of course, we have hate triumphing once again... http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/maine-gay-marriage-law-repealed/story?id=8992720.

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LucasJamison

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Re: Love Finally Wins Over Hate
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2009, 11:21:08 AM »

Why not? Because you are criminalizing thoughts. And that is a dangerous precedent.

In fact, you are not. Hate all day, all night, as much as you want - that's legal. This bill does not, implicitly or explicitly, address thought. It even emphasizes that hate SPEECH is totes still cool, too. Like 5 different times, it says that.

If Action is a crime and Action+Thought is a worse crime then shouldn't the Thought by itself be considered a crime? It's not a big jump and the Orwellian prospect of Thought Police does not appeal to me at all.

This is a bullshit construction. It's not thought+crime > crime.

Hate crime is a bit of misnomer: it's not like, "oh, you did a normal crime, but you also hate that person? that's worse!". Bias motivated crimes have an impact beyond the crime itself, far beyond that of other types of crime, and have a disproportionately negative impact on members of the targeted group. Bias motivated crimes, not coincidently, also tend to be symptoms of the same underlying societal problems that cause them to have that negative impact, so it's all kind of interconnected and messy. I think the link Kate posted also does a good job of explaining some of this, but if you read up on this stuff you'll have a better understanding of why such legislation is necessary.
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Avie

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Re: Love Finally Wins Over Hate
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2009, 02:20:24 PM »

There IS a difference between "I'm crazy and I stab you with a knife" and "You're gay, so I stab you with a knife." 
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Mark

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Re: Love Finally Wins Over Hate
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2009, 02:55:14 PM »

I will respectfully disagree Avie, and leave it at that.
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Pillage, then burn.

Everything is air-droppable at least once.

A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head.

That which does not kill you has made a tactical error.

There is no "overkill".  There is only "Open Fire" and "Time to Reload!"

GJSchaller

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Re: Love Finally Wins Over Hate
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2009, 03:39:41 PM »

I served on a jury where a woman was murdered specifically because she was white, with blond hair and blue eyes.  The accused specifically stated he was intending to start a Race War, and selected his victim with this intent, but without any kind of pre-determination other than her appearance, such as knowing the person, past interaction, etc. - he didn't even know her before he selected her for killing.  That is about as close as you get to a Hate Crime.

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=566

Hate Crimes are very real.  Yes, this man was crazy - but there was a definite motivation, and process behind his actions - to wage a war against an entire selection of people based on criteria they were born with, not because of their individual interactions with him.  It wasn't random.  That is what this law is about.
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Re: Love Finally Wins Over Hate
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2009, 09:33:37 AM »

Here is my two cents.  I don't like it.  I beleve that a law like this actually isn't helping to bring down racisim.  Any time you call out race or in this case racialy motivated crimes you just draw attention to race.  Every time you yell "WHAT A BASTARD!  HE DID SOMETHING WRONG TO THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE DIFFERENT!"  Shure people will be upset with the guy who commited the hate crime but at the same time you shout out 'they are different'.  Saying such just drives us all apart.  Another reason that I feel would be best explained through example.  Lets say the green man and the yellow man get into an altercation due to the fact the green man dislikes yellow men.  Green dude kills yellow dude.  green guy gets prosicuted for killing a yellow man purely because he was yellow and the media spreads it.  Green guy gets shanked in the shower and there is much rejoiceing.  But now yellow people hear what the green man did to a yellow man and now yellow people begin showing contempt twards all green people due to one green persons actions.  green people begin to show similar feelings in return and the law will enevitably be put to more use.  Now do not think that I am saying if we don't put laws like this in effect hate crime would not occur.  What I am saying is that it wouldn't draw attention to the hate part of it.  Also expect that this law will be used most times green man kills yellow man and yellow kills a green whether or not it was racialy motivated. 

Also law in my understanding is set in place to punish people for actions, not motives.  I won't yell thought police at it but I do beleve its crossing a line.
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LucasJamison

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Re: Love Finally Wins Over Hate
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2009, 01:22:20 PM »

Here is my two cents.  I don't like it.  I beleve that a law like this actually isn't helping to bring down racisim.  Any time you call out race or in this case racialy motivated crimes you just draw attention to race.

Yes, of course, those who POINT OUT racism are, in fact, the real racists. This tired-ass response needs to be retired in favor of something that makes, I dunno, some kind of sense?

But now yellow people hear what the green man did to a yellow man and now yellow people begin showing contempt twards all green people due to one green persons actions.

This hypothetical? Does not play out IRL. We have hate crimes laws on the books, and their use by prosecutors has not led to a sharp increase in bias crimes.

Quote
What I am saying is that it wouldn't draw attention to the hate part of it. 

I see... IGNORING bias is the most effective method for eliminating it. Of course, why hadn't anyone ever thought of that before?

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Also expect that this law will be used most times green man kills yellow man and yellow kills a green whether or not it was racialy motivated.
 

Again, this is not the case.

Quote
Also law in my understanding is set in place to punish people for actions, not motives.  I won't yell thought police at it but I do beleve its crossing a line.

Your understanding is, simply put, wrong, on several counts. You know what the difference is between voluntary manslaughter and capital murder?
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Mack Ravensline

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Re: Love Finally Wins Over Hate
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2009, 02:48:14 PM »

As I stated once before, the punishments for crimes are sufficient. The reason why the sentancing on say assault is not just a one size fits all sentance is because the motivation and whether or not the person is likely to do the crime again are taken into account. If a green person assaults a yellow person for instance, the judge has a range from say 5 years to 25 years. If the reason the green person assaulted the yellow person was found to be because he hates all yellow people, most likely he will do so again if he is allowed to be out on the street, so the higher punishment, closer to 25 years should be given. A seperate law is not needed. If you start to establish groups that are more protected under the law, that by itself is a form of discrimination. The courts decide guilt or inocence strictly based on the crimes committed. Is it pathetic to target someone simply because of their race, creed, sexual preference, religion, or sex? absolutely. Should it be found that that was their motivation, should they get the higher end of the sentancing for that crime? certainly. The problem is that one group of people should not get preferential treatment under the law no matter what. And btw, not voting for same sex marriage is not hate, it is simply a set of beliefs on what defines marriage. I bet most of those same citizens would have happily voted for civil unions.
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LucasJamison

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Re: Love Finally Wins Over Hate
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2009, 03:51:43 PM »

The courts decide guilt or inocence strictly based on the crimes committed. Is it pathetic to target someone simply because of their race, creed, sexual preference, religion, or sex? absolutely. Should it be found that that was their motivation, should they get the higher end of the sentancing for that crime? certainly.


There are a number of reasons to establish a separate offense for bias motivated crimes. I think most of the anti-'hate crimes' backlash comes from scared people who think it'll be stepping stone to hate speech laws, though the likelihood of that happening is so infinitessimal (seriously, we can't even limit campaign contributions because of the 1st amendment, and you're worried there's gonna be SCOTUS-approved hate speech laws?) it boggles that someone can be worried about it. Plus the hardcore folks who feel their privileges impinged by any perceived societal support for the traditionally underprivileged, driving things.

Two quick reason for, that your response ignores, are that: 1) bias crimes against members of less privileged groups tend to have a negative impact on the group/community as a whole, in addition to the direct victim (THIS is not sufficiently addressed by the existing criminal laws, and IS a separate harm done requiring separate punishment), 2) passing the laws sends a message of societal intolerance for bias-motivated crimes, and in to a lesser degree the biases themselves

The problem is that one group of people should not get preferential treatment under the law no matter what.


The law under discussion doesn't establish any sort of preferential treatment, as it happens.

And btw, not voting for same sex marriage is not hate, it is simply a set of beliefs on what defines marriage. I bet most of those same citizens would have happily voted for civil unions.

And establishing civil unions as a separate but equivalent entity DOES NOT EFFECTIVELY GRANT THE SAME RIGHTS. DOES NOT. As determined in many cases where such schemes were established. So, sure, many of those voters would have happily granted gays the privilege to have a few more of the benefits they are currently denied, but not ALL. Because, you know, actual equality is intolerable!
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Avie

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Re: Love Finally Wins Over Hate
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2009, 04:26:17 PM »

2) passing the laws sends a message of societal intolerance for bias-motivated crimes, and in to a lesser degree the biases themselves


This, this, this, this, this.

And fighting against laws sending this message indicates a support of those biases.
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